Spring rates
So basically you're saying you want a:
-Front spring with a lower spring rate (softer) to unload the stored energy quicker
-Stiffer rear shock to help plant the rear end
So I'm guessing you want a front shock that's "looser" (kind of like a worn out DeCarbon) to help the spring decompress? And a stiffer rear spring to plant the rear even more?
Just trying to put this in perspective for myself and others I'm sure.
-Front spring with a lower spring rate (softer) to unload the stored energy quicker
-Stiffer rear shock to help plant the rear end
So I'm guessing you want a front shock that's "looser" (kind of like a worn out DeCarbon) to help the spring decompress? And a stiffer rear spring to plant the rear even more?
Just trying to put this in perspective for myself and others I'm sure.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,295
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From: At the track
BADFNZ you are on the right track. I still recommend a good adjustable front and rear shock. A 150lb spring in the rear and a tighter shock is a good setup.
How much does spring height effect weight transfer? Does a taller spring in front lead to better unload? For example, if you took a stock spring and replaced it with a stock spring with a coil cut off, would the latter not unload the stored energy as effeciently?
And for the rear, does a shorter spring work better due to the energy having to travel less distance to plant the rear?
And for the rear, does a shorter spring work better due to the energy having to travel less distance to plant the rear?
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,295
Likes: 4
From: At the track
I normally run stock style springs for most cars. We prefer the stock camaro firebird. Not the SS or WS6 springs. They dont like to be cut though.
So the V6 springs are stiffer than the SS/WS-6 springs? A previous post stated that you want a softer spring in the front and stiffer in the back. Is there any difference between the Z28 and SS springs? Im running my stock springs in my SS, I want to know what to use all the way around. Only thing is that I dont want to run the Hal springs because I hear theyre really soft and not meant for the street. They also say you run the risk of blowing the shocks with the race springs.
MADMAN and Billingsley:
Just a quick question: are all of the vertical displacement/load graphs for springs exactly linear? If not, are we only using the springs in the portion of the graph that is linear?
If the graphs are not linear, then the assumption that it takes 315 lbs to compress a 315 rated spring 1 inch would not be true correct?
Just a quick question: are all of the vertical displacement/load graphs for springs exactly linear? If not, are we only using the springs in the portion of the graph that is linear?
If the graphs are not linear, then the assumption that it takes 315 lbs to compress a 315 rated spring 1 inch would not be true correct?
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Verdad Gallardo Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,295
Likes: 4
From: At the track
Good question!!!!! The springs I use are linear.
Can I toss a twist in here ... Brian, how does that affect the control of the vehicle down the track? I understand the dynamics of the launch, but I can't grasp what happens down the track. What is to say some one doesn't just decide to run the stiffest springs possible in the back with the hardest shock, while selecting the highest rebound springs on the front. Would this affect driveability and/or vehicle stability at the 1/8 mark or the top end? I don't want her to go air borne, if you know what I mean. 
Great thread guys!
Great thread guys!
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,295
Likes: 4
From: At the track
That definitely is a twist. You dont want stiff springs in the back. Just enough to hold the car up. On the shocks most "Good" adjustable shocks work off speed of travel. The aerodynamics of the car is going to try to compress the shock spring combo.
You actually could get the shocks too stiff and the car usually will start to haze the tires. This is one of the reasons I prefer the doubl adjustable shocks. You can tune them alot easier for launch and down track.
On a properly tuned car you could actually throw the rear springs away after the initial hit. The car rides on the suspension and shocks. The springs are just along for the ride. (I havent found a customer that will allow me to prove this theory yet LOL)
You actually could get the shocks too stiff and the car usually will start to haze the tires. This is one of the reasons I prefer the doubl adjustable shocks. You can tune them alot easier for launch and down track.
On a properly tuned car you could actually throw the rear springs away after the initial hit. The car rides on the suspension and shocks. The springs are just along for the ride. (I havent found a customer that will allow me to prove this theory yet LOL)
I just installed a set of HAL Rs up front. I used the stock style springs because it is a daily driver. As far as a rear setup, what shock/spring combo should I go with. What about v6 springs in the rear. Would the comp engeneering 3way adjustables work well in the back? Great thread...thanks for all of the info so far!
Guess no one wants to help me out. Wanted...to know what springs to use. I'm running stock SS springs all the way around. Dont want to run the Hal front springs because I hear theyre too soft and I will run the risk of blowing my shocks. Need something that isnt too soft, but better than stock for better weight transfer.
go with the stock front z28 springs instead of the SS springs, or see what QA1 is coming out with as a more street friendly front spring. i remember a post about this just recently in this section.
Chris
Chris
Some really good info here.
For those of us who have extremely light race cars, spring choice could affect ride height a great deal. For example, a 2850lb car that runs standard v8 rear springs could sit an inch or to higher than if they were running V6 springs in the back, correct? But then, V6 springs are soft and you want a harder spring..
So how do you setup extremely light race cars? Do you go with a softer spring for better ride height or a harder spring and a raised rear end.. You mentioned stock V8 springs don't like being cut so its a catch 22.
For those of us who have extremely light race cars, spring choice could affect ride height a great deal. For example, a 2850lb car that runs standard v8 rear springs could sit an inch or to higher than if they were running V6 springs in the back, correct? But then, V6 springs are soft and you want a harder spring..
So how do you setup extremely light race cars? Do you go with a softer spring for better ride height or a harder spring and a raised rear end.. You mentioned stock V8 springs don't like being cut so its a catch 22.
So the V6, Z28, and SS springs are all different? I wouldnt consider my car light, its probably in the 3200s. When setting up my stock front springs with the Hals, I measured the stock setup and put the spanner in same spot where the spring seat would of been on the stock shock.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,295
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From: At the track
Magnus, usually on the light cars U convert the rear to a 2.5 diameter spring. Then you can run different lenght springs to get the desired ride height. Most of the cars out there that are low run a 12" spring. RickC5 I put a 9" spring and a 1.5" spacer.
what modifications are necessary to run that 2.5" diameter spring. my car is very light as well and i'm trying to get the rear of the car down. I like the stance that Rick's car has, so is that a setup (9" spring 1.5" spacer) something that I should look into as well, or stick with the 12" spring in a 3000# car?
Chris
Chris
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,295
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From: At the track
Stick with the 12" Ricks car is actually too low. We had to claerance the tunnel etc.
To run the springs you will need to fabricate a new cup on the frame to locate the spring. The housing is ready.
To run the springs you will need to fabricate a new cup on the frame to locate the spring. The housing is ready.
Originally Posted by MADMAN
The more you compress a spring the more "stored energy" the spring holds. When you launch the spring tries to throw the car up and relieve the stored energy. This ends up being a wheelstand situation if the cars hook.
The way to remedy this situation is to run a softer spring. We normally try a 275 lbs spring compressed to 5.5 inches. This lowers the total weight to 3024lbs BUT the car runs out of stored energy quicker so it will slow a wheelstand down. You could actually put a 225lb. spring on and compess it to 7 inches and hold the car up but kill the weight transfer.
Tightening the shock up on the front will not control the wheelstands as the shocks work to slow to overcome the spring. Only a softer spring or a limiter will control the front end.
Hopefully this will explain some of my spring theories.
The way to remedy this situation is to run a softer spring. We normally try a 275 lbs spring compressed to 5.5 inches. This lowers the total weight to 3024lbs BUT the car runs out of stored energy quicker so it will slow a wheelstand down. You could actually put a 225lb. spring on and compess it to 7 inches and hold the car up but kill the weight transfer.
Tightening the shock up on the front will not control the wheelstands as the shocks work to slow to overcome the spring. Only a softer spring or a limiter will control the front end.
Hopefully this will explain some of my spring theories.
and as far as the dampening not being able to control wheelstands? are you crazy?
not trying to get down on ya...but when i see something posted that is totally wrong...i just have to say something.
Last edited by slow3hoe2; Dec 14, 2004 at 08:50 AM.