jasonisdn

iTrader: (1)

why should i downgrade to a cast comp cam design? and heads that race flow numbers? crap i am only running a lt1, better clear that up before someone thinks i have a ls1. ***** find me and a beer is yours.

PS i will try his if they are free, i bought the only set i can afford.

brokeTA

iTrader: (9)

Wow at this whole thread. I am a very un-biased person in all aspects in this one so I will give my input on what I see here. First of all less than stellar results in general. Especially since there have been cam only m6 cars making the same or more power (not the issue here though). This is the reason I have no faith in dyno numbers. Its a shame the car didn't go to the track before and after to see the results there as well as the dyno. For arguments sake nobody can say power for power, and money for money it seems the trick flows wouldn't be the way to go. On a more personal note I would like to see the difference between the Dart 225s and the TFS 220s. I don't honestly thinks its a fair comparison for the 205s vs the 220s. But for somebody that was starting fresh the TFS heads would be the way to go. I have personally never tried the Dart 205, but have had the Dart 225's on a few different setups, and I have to say I have never been disappointed in them. So to say the Dart heads are total **** I would have to disagree there. Obviously there are heads that are better. To be honest I have seen some of the best results with gm casting heads that have been cnc'd.

Ron have you had any experience with the Dart heads (any size really)? I understand from a business standpoint that Trickflow has been very good for your business. They make the power, and sell the product, and from what it seems they are pretty reliable in doing so. From a newb standpoint it would seem like you are hung up on Trickflow. Most people aren't smart enough to figure out why though...LOL. I have installed trickflows products on a couple different setups, and have never been disappointed with them either.

I would be willing to bet that the 225 Dart would perform better than alot of you expect. I had the option when I was building my last setup. It was very budget minded to say the least and that at the time was the reason for the Dart 225's goin on my car. I'm a direct dealer for them, and the price couldn't have been better. This year I will be maximizing the performance of the current setup, and given what I know about mine I doubt I will be swapping heads anytime soon.

MUSTANGEATER

iTrader: (10)

LMAO that's funny

Damian

iTrader: (89)

Keep this on topic or it will be locked.

Nimitz87

iTrader: (17)

as an owner of BOX stock 205's I can see that this is quite an improvement...

I dyno'd 415/400 with the torquer 2 cam...same cam as the F14 if im not mistaken. however have seen results with the same cam and ported and milled heads make over 445rwhp. its true that the DART's out of the box aren't impressive at all....I wish I would have known more about cylinder heads at the time of purchase and most likely would have went with something else...

now I probably can't give these away...

hey ron question, what gaskets were used for both heads? same CR? what was the DCR?

Chad

KMS.1320

iTrader: (1)

For the last time, I am not Bret.

If I was I might be in here asking how AI's 243's did for the Daytona races... (and how did Joe's do? since Bret sells that head?)

If I was I might be asking Mike how those stock pushrods are working out for him with the Comp lifters...

If I was I might be asking Brian what his 396 did in the 1/4...

...but I'm not.

If you want to call me one of his followers, so be it. That's probably a very accurate assessment because I am.

blu byu EH

iTrader: (25)

jasonisdn

iTrader: (1)

didn't the Telmex win the year before joe worked for them? he worked for them in the 2008 race right? so who did their heads for the win in 2007?

SS RRR

iTrader: (2)

Bert trying to prove Bert is not Bert reminds me of OJ's "If I did it..." effort.
If Kevin is Bert then Bert should ask Bert why Bert was dismissed from a popular head porting shop.

zippy

Just an un-biased thought on what I've read. I think it was interesting to see the gain. Any time someone posts up dyno numbers it should be a good thing. My opinion here is that the person who chose to go with a 205cc head wasted his money. The 225 Darts are at about the same price and that I know of don't pose of any real loss in power down low. The guy bought too small of a head to start with when for about the same price he could have bought 225's. He stepped up to a 220cc head and gained power. No suprise there. The Dart 225's would likely have been about the same power output as the Trick Flow's. They are about 100-200 dollars less right now for the Trick Flows. Less cost than the Darts for about the same performance (if you buy the bigger one's to start with), yes. Less cost in the end after buying the wrong head in the first place, no.

66deuce

iTrader: (1)

the TFS heads posted a solid gain over the Darts,that's a fact..not taking sides or arguing the point..but saying the Darts should have made more power down low because of it's smaller runner is wrong,IMO..it's the CSA of the port,not the volume, that is important here..
as long as the proper port CSA is maintained,15cc more volume won't hurt the power down low..hell,the LPE/GMPP LS6 heads are like 250cc in volume

BOTTLEFEDLS1Z

iTrader: (32)

So if this is such an unfair comparison due to the intake runner size, then why did the bigger runner still make more power down low where the smaller runner should be higher? I can see the argument some would have if the numbers were peak, but the fact is they're not. Would this be attributed to the valve job on the Dart's or what?

Sigforty

I would contribute it to the change of the valve angle the Trickflow heads have. Part of their main benefit is the 13.5 degree valve angle compared to stock Ls heads and most other aftermarket designs that retain a 15 degree angle.

66deuce

iTrader: (1)

it's not an unfair comparison..both are out of the box,used the same dyno to compare #s..the TFS heads delivered the goods..
what i'm saying the size of the runner has nothing to do with making more power down low..
i don't know what Dart uses as far as a VJ..it could be crap..
maybe the TFS heads have a better CSA,better VJ,who knows..
it's just that everybody is hung up on "smaller runners making more power down low"..like i said,CSA of the port is more important than it's volume..

BOTTLEFEDLS1Z

iTrader: (32)

IDK, I'm just not a fan of Dart's in general. I mean 205's out of the box that flow in the ~280CFM range is bullshit. Then to top that off you gotta spend a grand if not more to have them "worked" to get great flow numbers out of them. I looked at Dart 225's for my car at first, but after adding up everything, I'd have almost $3500 in set of cylinder heads.(With Bret Bauer working them over)

To each their own, I guess.

66deuce

iTrader: (1)

as long as the port shape compliments the shallower valve angle,your correct..which in this case looks like that could be true..

BOTTLEFEDLS1Z

iTrader: (32)

I never thought that this was an unfair comparison at all. I always thought that the smaller runner WILL make more power down low given the amount of cubes. Look at the guys running 402's with AFR 205's. Their peak numbers aren't there, but the torque sure is.

Brian Tooley Racing

iTrader: (13)

Some other points to look at when comparing these two heads are:

The TFS heads have guides that are sized on the CNC and are within .0001" from top to bottom and from guide to guide, the Dart heads are hand sized, and from what I've seen, are very poor.

The TFS heads have a CNC bowl blend, and are very "friendly" if someone wants to work them further by hand, the Dart heads have a hand bowl blend, and are very inconsistent and poor.

The TFS heads have fully CNC ported combustion chambers, the Dart heads have as cast chambers.

The TFS heads have 1.300" dual Max pressure springs, the best in the business, the Dart has single beehive springs that don't have nearly as much pressure. If you want to run a very aggressive cam, you are going to need a spring change for the Dart heads.

These heads are the same as what TFS sells, there is basically no difference.

Don't get me wrong, we've had customers make very good power with the Dart heads, but we had to get them completely untouched with no seats or guides and do all of the machine work ourselves.

PokeyGTO

iTrader: (1)

Ron, thank you for posting and sharing information that might help people make better choices the first time around.

JS

iTrader: (4)

Brain u are wrong about the valvetrain parts..

Shim the dart single beehives and they will control .650 lift and are made by PSI....
As a matter of fact the retainers are made by trick titanium.

U need to buy rockers for the TFS,U dont with a Dart..
PUT THE DART 225 on it and I betcha they work just as good as the TFS 220

NO ROCKERS TO BUY AND 200 CHEAPER FOR THE HEADS...
U DO THE MATH GUYS..

There is nothing wrong with the guides,there is nothing wrong with the VJ
Its all internet BS,just look at some of FUTRALS RESULTS WITH DARTS..