Can I make 400whp with this setup?
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
From: Chicago, IL
Can I make 400whp with this setup? I bought a car with a heads/cam combo and had it tuned. I was hoping I could have the lumpy cam tuned out. As this is a daily driver, the stumbly idle is not what I'm looking for. I want it smooth as butter.
After reading a Car Craft cam comparison where they compared a cam similar to my current cam to a Lingenfelter GT2-3 cam, I think it's the cam I want. The 2-3 cam beat my cam in torque all the way up to 5800rpm. Of course my cam killed it for the 1000rpm after that, but I'm rarely in that range.
Here is my setup as it sits:
1999 stock LS1 shortblock
GTP Stage 2 5.3L ported heads
TSP 228R cam (112lsa)
Pac 1518 beehives, stock rockers
LS6 intake manifold
Ported LS1 throttle body
1 3/4" long tubes, 2.5" true duels, no cats
In fender cold air intake
3.90 rear end
I just had it dynod, and it made 415whp, 385wtq on a dynojet with SAE correction.
Car Crafts comparison showed the bigger cam like mine lost almost 50ft/lbs of torque to the smaller cam below 3000rpm. As this is a daily driver, I'd like as much low end grunt as possible while retaining a smooth idle. The other goal is to be able to run 11's in street trim, the car weighs 2800lbs.
Will I be able to still make 400whp with a Lingenfelter GT2-3 cam and everything else listed above?
For *****, here is the dyno of the 228R on my setup:
After reading a Car Craft cam comparison where they compared a cam similar to my current cam to a Lingenfelter GT2-3 cam, I think it's the cam I want. The 2-3 cam beat my cam in torque all the way up to 5800rpm. Of course my cam killed it for the 1000rpm after that, but I'm rarely in that range.
Here is my setup as it sits:
1999 stock LS1 shortblock
GTP Stage 2 5.3L ported heads
TSP 228R cam (112lsa)
Pac 1518 beehives, stock rockers
LS6 intake manifold
Ported LS1 throttle body
1 3/4" long tubes, 2.5" true duels, no cats
In fender cold air intake
3.90 rear end
I just had it dynod, and it made 415whp, 385wtq on a dynojet with SAE correction.
Car Crafts comparison showed the bigger cam like mine lost almost 50ft/lbs of torque to the smaller cam below 3000rpm. As this is a daily driver, I'd like as much low end grunt as possible while retaining a smooth idle. The other goal is to be able to run 11's in street trim, the car weighs 2800lbs.
Will I be able to still make 400whp with a Lingenfelter GT2-3 cam and everything else listed above?
For *****, here is the dyno of the 228R on my setup:
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
From: Chicago, IL
As a frame of reference, here are the results from the car craft test. These results were on a 5.3L:
Blue = Bone stock 5.3L
Gray = Long Tube Headers only
Red = Long tubes + LPE GT2-3 cam (207/220, .571/.578, 118/6 CL)
Green = Long tubes + LPE GT1-1 cam (229/242, .631/.631, 114 CL)
These are engine dyno numbers on a 5.3L
Blue = Bone stock 5.3L
Gray = Long Tube Headers only
Red = Long tubes + LPE GT2-3 cam (207/220, .571/.578, 118/6 CL)
Green = Long tubes + LPE GT1-1 cam (229/242, .631/.631, 114 CL)
These are engine dyno numbers on a 5.3L
TSP did a cam comparision test ranging from their 220 cams up to their 228 cam. You should search for it as you are comparing apples to oranges. You cannot compare rear wheel torque numbers to numbers of a 5.3 @ the flywheel. Using the 15% drivetrain loss you are making around 450 ft lbs at the flywheel. @ 3200rpm you are right around 410 ft lbs. You could throw in a LS6 cam for cheap if you want a better idle with out giving up too much hp.
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
From: Chicago, IL
The only reason I posted the 5.3 chart was to show the difference between the two cams, not to compare peak numbers.
As you can see, the gt2-3 makes quite a bit more low end torque and only sacrifices horsepower to the bigger cam after 5800rpm.... seems to me like a good choice for a sleeper/stock like cam, but I was curious if people thought it could make 400whp on my setup.
As you can see, the gt2-3 makes quite a bit more low end torque and only sacrifices horsepower to the bigger cam after 5800rpm.... seems to me like a good choice for a sleeper/stock like cam, but I was curious if people thought it could make 400whp on my setup.
Well just to compare with the 5.3, big cam vs little cam. The bigger cam makes 35 more hp than the smaller cam. So say you go to a cam about that same size subtract 35hp from yours and you are around 380 rwhp. Not perfect math by any means but I am sure you can even draw that conclusion.
Call up New era for info about that cam.
Oh just for a little more info I have a custom 224 cam that I lost no power down low at all and actually has more power for cruising and what not. Its all in the valve events, my baseline was basically a few bolts vs cam + unported 243 heads. Its hard to compare 2 dynos but it looks like am up on the torque down low over your setup.
That baby cam 220*-224*-111* grind seems to work pretty damned well..
Oh just for a little more info I have a custom 224 cam that I lost no power down low at all and actually has more power for cruising and what not. Its all in the valve events, my baseline was basically a few bolts vs cam + unported 243 heads. Its hard to compare 2 dynos but it looks like am up on the torque down low over your setup.
Last edited by Nitroused383; Sep 26, 2009 at 03:07 PM.
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
From: Chicago, IL
It seems like there might be a sizeable difference between the GT1-1 and the cam I currently run. I think mine is somewhere in between:
GT1-1 : 229/242, .631/.631 114 lsa
Mine : 228/228, .589/.589 112 lsa
GT2-3 : 207/220, .571/.578 118 lsa
If the GT2-3 gives up 35whp to the GT1-1, perhaps when going from mine to a GT2-3 the loss wouldn't be as great.
I know this is all conjecture, bench racing, blah blah. I posted to see if my goals were realistic. If I made 415whp with my cam, is 400whp unrealistic for a GT2-3 on the same setup?
GT1-1 : 229/242, .631/.631 114 lsa
Mine : 228/228, .589/.589 112 lsa
GT2-3 : 207/220, .571/.578 118 lsa
If the GT2-3 gives up 35whp to the GT1-1, perhaps when going from mine to a GT2-3 the loss wouldn't be as great.
I know this is all conjecture, bench racing, blah blah. I posted to see if my goals were realistic. If I made 415whp with my cam, is 400whp unrealistic for a GT2-3 on the same setup?
Why don't you just get a custom cam?
You can have a smooth idle and still make good power. Less overlap is the key. You probably won't make as much peak power as the big cam but its not going to be a HUGE difference.
GMhightechperformance did an article with an ls3 comparing a bunch of different cams. You should check it out. The lingenfelter cam only gave up about 20hp at the engine compared to the larger cams.
http://www.gmhightechperformance.com...son/index.html
*disclaimer* this doesn't represent how an LS1 will respond to an identical test....
You can have a smooth idle and still make good power. Less overlap is the key. You probably won't make as much peak power as the big cam but its not going to be a HUGE difference.
GMhightechperformance did an article with an ls3 comparing a bunch of different cams. You should check it out. The lingenfelter cam only gave up about 20hp at the engine compared to the larger cams.
http://www.gmhightechperformance.com...son/index.html
*disclaimer* this doesn't represent how an LS1 will respond to an identical test....
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i do not think that 207/220 cam will make 400rwhp with your setup. if your not going to be over 5800 and you want bottem end, then y the hell you hung up on the MAX PEAK HP of 400???
Originally Posted by gold98Z28
i do not think that 207/220 cam will make 400rwhp with your setup. if your not going to be over 5800 and you want bottem end, then y the hell you hung up on the MAX PEAK HP of 400???
TECH Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 14,620
Likes: 17
From: BFE
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
From: Chicago, IL
1) Max bottom end grunt for daily driving WHILE
2) Being able to run a solid 11 second quartermile on street tires.
The car in it's current state (or rather when it made 429whp) ran an 11.1@127mph on a drag radial. On a street tire, I'd guess I'd give up at least 0.5 seconds. That puts me around 11.6
If I swap cams out and lose 20whp, I'd like to still be able to run in the 11's as she sits on the street everyday. It's just a pet peeve of mine to listen to people brag about how their car runs 10's and makes 600 horsepower only to find out that it only makes that on race gas, and only runs that on a slick (coming from the import turbo crowd). That same car AS IT SITS in street trim runs a 12.5 ... sad.
TECH Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 14,620
Likes: 17
From: BFE
Because my goals are twofold.
1) Max bottom end grunt for daily driving WHILE
2) Being able to run a solid 11 second quartermile on street tires.
The car in it's current state (or rather when it made 429whp) ran an 11.1@127mph on a drag radial. On a street tire, I'd guess I'd give up at least 0.5 seconds. That puts me around 11.6
If I swap cams out and lose 20whp, I'd like to still be able to run in the 11's as she sits on the street everyday. It's just a pet peeve of mine to listen to people brag about how their car runs 10's and makes 600 horsepower only to find out that it only makes that on race gas, and only runs that on a slick (coming from the import turbo crowd). That same car AS IT SITS in street trim runs a 12.5 ... sad.
1) Max bottom end grunt for daily driving WHILE
2) Being able to run a solid 11 second quartermile on street tires.
The car in it's current state (or rather when it made 429whp) ran an 11.1@127mph on a drag radial. On a street tire, I'd guess I'd give up at least 0.5 seconds. That puts me around 11.6
If I swap cams out and lose 20whp, I'd like to still be able to run in the 11's as she sits on the street everyday. It's just a pet peeve of mine to listen to people brag about how their car runs 10's and makes 600 horsepower only to find out that it only makes that on race gas, and only runs that on a slick (coming from the import turbo crowd). That same car AS IT SITS in street trim runs a 12.5 ... sad.
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
From: Chicago, IL
The car is a 1993 RX7. Full weight it's 2850.
The car was tuned by Jim Moran of Speed Inc. It has no problem holding idle between 850-1000rpm, but I'm not a fan of the stumbly idle. The overlap combined with the 112 LSA gives is a pretty good stumble at idle. Enough to shake the car good. That's not "mild mannered" in my opinion.
I'm going to change the motor, trans and diff mounts soon and see if that makes any difference, but I'm not blind, deaf, or nerve-less. Perhaps it doesn't shake like you guys with really big cams, but come from smooth idling rice burners it's just not my piece of pie. I love how the car looks, brakes, accelerates, feels, everything. I just don't like how sloppy the idle feels. It just doesn't match the car as it's NOT a muscle car.
I love the torque though and am thinking that the LPE GT2-3 will make MORE torque below 4000rpm or so than I'm making now and idle like stock. I was just curious if people experienced with this particular cam thought it'd be capable of 400whp on this setup. For those reading along, I'm not an idiot who bought the wrong cam without doing my research. I bought the car as-is for much less than I could have built it for. Swapping a cam is of no concern as I store it during the winters and have all the time in the world to work on it.
The car was tuned by Jim Moran of Speed Inc. It has no problem holding idle between 850-1000rpm, but I'm not a fan of the stumbly idle. The overlap combined with the 112 LSA gives is a pretty good stumble at idle. Enough to shake the car good. That's not "mild mannered" in my opinion.
I'm going to change the motor, trans and diff mounts soon and see if that makes any difference, but I'm not blind, deaf, or nerve-less. Perhaps it doesn't shake like you guys with really big cams, but come from smooth idling rice burners it's just not my piece of pie. I love how the car looks, brakes, accelerates, feels, everything. I just don't like how sloppy the idle feels. It just doesn't match the car as it's NOT a muscle car.
I love the torque though and am thinking that the LPE GT2-3 will make MORE torque below 4000rpm or so than I'm making now and idle like stock. I was just curious if people experienced with this particular cam thought it'd be capable of 400whp on this setup. For those reading along, I'm not an idiot who bought the wrong cam without doing my research. I bought the car as-is for much less than I could have built it for. Swapping a cam is of no concern as I store it during the winters and have all the time in the world to work on it.
TECH Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 14,620
Likes: 17
From: BFE
No one says anything about you being a idiot. Comming from riceland I understand why you would think this cam lopes hard 
But there are better cams than going the other extreme to a 207 size duration with a very negative overlap.
IMO you will not break 400 with GT2-3
If you want a stealthy cam go with -5>-6* overlap.
Like 218/228 114+2 LSA (along these lines)
That will maintain the trq and should break 400 whp if done correctly. Contact Patrick G. He is affiliated with Geoff that used to work at TR (has his shop now) and his proprietary lobes will do the trick.
The reason is those lobes you can reuse Pac 1518 comfortably.
But there are better cams than going the other extreme to a 207 size duration with a very negative overlap.
IMO you will not break 400 with GT2-3
If you want a stealthy cam go with -5>-6* overlap.
Like 218/228 114+2 LSA (along these lines)
That will maintain the trq and should break 400 whp if done correctly. Contact Patrick G. He is affiliated with Geoff that used to work at TR (has his shop now) and his proprietary lobes will do the trick.
The reason is those lobes you can reuse Pac 1518 comfortably.
Last edited by PREDATOR-Z; Sep 27, 2009 at 11:23 PM.
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
From: Chicago, IL
Along those lines, I've done a lot of searching and found mention that the lobe design has a lot to do with the sewing machine or valvetrain noise. Is there a particular lobe design I need to stray away from if I want the smoothest quietest idle?
For grins... here is a pic of my car. To me, it needs a sleeper cam. I think it's a fantastic looking car, but lopey shakey idle doesn't fit it's character.
For grins... here is a pic of my car. To me, it needs a sleeper cam. I think it's a fantastic looking car, but lopey shakey idle doesn't fit it's character.
A light car like an FD can use a cam that is more top-end oriented and concentrates less on low-end. This means a cam with a wider LSA and more "endurance" type of cam lobes (quieter).
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2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2022 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 S&B CAI, Corsa catback.
2023 Corvette 3LT Z51 soon to be modified.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2022 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 S&B CAI, Corsa catback.
2023 Corvette 3LT Z51 soon to be modified.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
