Truck Coils MYTH PROVEN INSIDE
10-27-2009, 09:29 AM
#81
My truck is turbocharged, I like it that way!!
This thread has degraded to a pissing contest for some reason. I just wrote my findings with my 6.0 in my truck, this has caused me to use the truck coils in many cop engines because they produced more power with no ill effects. One thing I think most will agree with is that the truck coils won't hurt performance and they are long lasting parts at a reasonable price. If you need coils on a new build it would be foolish not to use the truck coils, and if you have any other coil and your engine does not misfire rock on if you so desire!! I have shared information I have on my testing which was done back to back in my favorite A-B-A method, it has me convinced the added amperage is helpful.
Kurt
This thread has degraded to a pissing contest for some reason. I just wrote my findings with my 6.0 in my truck, this has caused me to use the truck coils in many cop engines because they produced more power with no ill effects. One thing I think most will agree with is that the truck coils won't hurt performance and they are long lasting parts at a reasonable price. If you need coils on a new build it would be foolish not to use the truck coils, and if you have any other coil and your engine does not misfire rock on if you so desire!! I have shared information I have on my testing which was done back to back in my favorite A-B-A method, it has me convinced the added amperage is helpful.
Kurt
10-27-2009, 10:59 AM
#83
I find it hilarious that the guys who are bashing the truck coils after one member reports no gain are probably the same guys who bashed the truck coils because "only a couple" members posted up that they saw gains. 
"MYTH PROVEN" - get real. One car's dyno result doesn't prove jack ****. Show me twenty or twenty-five independent results before I conclude whether they are a good mod... or not.
I am accustomed to seeing HP and TQ vary by 2-3 (HP or Ft-lb) on back to back dyno pulls when nothing has been changed. So when some members picked up 10 RWHP (or more with Spectacle's customer) on back to back pulls where only the coils had been swapped, I thought it was intriguing enough to pick up a set of those coils and slap them on my Procharged car. I didn't feel that a couple people showing gains is conclusive at all, but for the price of a nice used set of coils, I was intrigued and willing to experiment. With the cylinder pressures in an FI application, I felt the stronger spark from the D585 coils might be a good thing and can't hurt.
"MYTH PROVEN" - get real.
One car's dyno result doesn't prove jack ****. Show me twenty or twenty-five independent results before I conclude whether they are a good mod... or not.I am accustomed to seeing HP and TQ vary by 2-3 (HP or Ft-lb) on back to back dyno pulls when nothing has been changed. So when some members picked up 10 RWHP (or more with Spectacle's customer) on back to back pulls where only the coils had been swapped, I thought it was intriguing enough to pick up a set of those coils and slap them on my Procharged car. I didn't feel that a couple people showing gains is conclusive at all, but for the price of a nice used set of coils, I was intrigued and willing to experiment. With the cylinder pressures in an FI application, I felt the stronger spark from the D585 coils might be a good thing and can't hurt.
10-28-2009, 09:20 AM
#84
I am accustomed to seeing HP and TQ vary by 2-3 (HP or Ft-lb) on back to back dyno pulls when nothing has been changed. So when some members picked up 10 RWHP (or more with Spectacle's customer) on back to back pulls where only the coils had been swapped, I thought it was intriguing enough to pick up a set of those coils and slap them on my Procharged car. I didn't feel that a couple people showing gains is conclusive at all, but for the price of a nice used set of coils, I was intrigued and willing to experiment. With the cylinder pressures in an FI application, I felt the stronger spark from the D585 coils might be a good thing and can't hurt.
10-28-2009, 11:34 AM
#86
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LoL,
TO ANSWER A QUESTION
The tuning for just the ignition dwell alone is different for each year as the cars get newer- I would need a list of every change in coils to match them with every tune.
If you guys think that the coils are no different then you are being ignorant. Are they better than a stock ls1 coil? If they are more heat efficient then they are better.
With electrical, heat is a form of resistance - if they manage heat better than you can expect them to be more efficient.
And I can't believe we have an engine builder saying " If there was no knock then there is no gain"
Ive had cars come to me for tuning where they left making 400hp with no knock, check the plugs after the dyno pull and the reason the car needed tuning was because it needed 3 new spark plugs. Car made 403 after the plugs- This dyno test doesn't prove anything. Its just another post about someone trying it out and needs to be locked or deleted as anyone claiming they figured everything out in one car's test is posting bad information.
TO ANSWER A QUESTION
The tuning for just the ignition dwell alone is different for each year as the cars get newer- I would need a list of every change in coils to match them with every tune.
If you guys think that the coils are no different then you are being ignorant. Are they better than a stock ls1 coil? If they are more heat efficient then they are better.
With electrical, heat is a form of resistance - if they manage heat better than you can expect them to be more efficient.
And I can't believe we have an engine builder saying " If there was no knock then there is no gain"
Ive had cars come to me for tuning where they left making 400hp with no knock, check the plugs after the dyno pull and the reason the car needed tuning was because it needed 3 new spark plugs. Car made 403 after the plugs- This dyno test doesn't prove anything. Its just another post about someone trying it out and needs to be locked or deleted as anyone claiming they figured everything out in one car's test is posting bad information.
10-28-2009, 12:14 PM
#87
Like I've been saying, the D585 coils, as well as the ls2, ls3, ls7 coils are simply better than the ls1 coils, so if you can get a set that are in good condition for low cost, why wouldn't you make the change?? Not everything is about making more power.
10-28-2009, 11:21 PM
#89
do you mean "hotter spark" literally? how does one measure temperature of the spark in a cylinder? And, spark doesn't burn anything, it IGNITES. It's like saying that you have better barbeque because you ignited the fire with nicer matches...
again as far as I know, only definite amount of fuel can burn with given amount of oxygen, and it's chemically limited. Once mixture is ignited, it's all equal.
Am I wrong somewhere?
again as far as I know, only definite amount of fuel can burn with given amount of oxygen, and it's chemically limited. Once mixture is ignited, it's all equal.
Am I wrong somewhere?
More current = more energy to burn the fuel mixture.
10-28-2009, 11:25 PM
#90
LoL,
TO ANSWER A QUESTION
The tuning for just the ignition dwell alone is different for each year as the cars get newer- I would need a list of every change in coils to match them with every tune.
If you guys think that the coils are no different then you are being ignorant. Are they better than a stock ls1 coil? If they are more heat efficient then they are better.
With electrical, heat is a form of resistance - if they manage heat better than you can expect them to be more efficient.
And I can't believe we have an engine builder saying " If there was no knock then there is no gain"
Ive had cars come to me for tuning where they left making 400hp with no knock, check the plugs after the dyno pull and the reason the car needed tuning was because it needed 3 new spark plugs. Car made 403 after the plugs- This dyno test doesn't prove anything. Its just another post about someone trying it out and needs to be locked or deleted as anyone claiming they figured everything out in one car's test is posting bad information.
TO ANSWER A QUESTION
The tuning for just the ignition dwell alone is different for each year as the cars get newer- I would need a list of every change in coils to match them with every tune.
If you guys think that the coils are no different then you are being ignorant. Are they better than a stock ls1 coil? If they are more heat efficient then they are better.
With electrical, heat is a form of resistance - if they manage heat better than you can expect them to be more efficient.
And I can't believe we have an engine builder saying " If there was no knock then there is no gain"
Ive had cars come to me for tuning where they left making 400hp with no knock, check the plugs after the dyno pull and the reason the car needed tuning was because it needed 3 new spark plugs. Car made 403 after the plugs- This dyno test doesn't prove anything. Its just another post about someone trying it out and needs to be locked or deleted as anyone claiming they figured everything out in one car's test is posting bad information.
(except the lock/delete comment, that's silly.)
10-29-2009, 11:41 AM
#91
Think of it this way.
I have a cigarette, to smoke it I need a cigarette (fuel), ignition(spark), and me breathing in(air).
Say I want to get more smoke(hp) while smoking, I can go to a bigger cigarette(more fuel) and breathe in more (more air), but if my original ignition, lets say a lighter, is lighting it fine, am I really going to gain anything by lighting my smoke with a torch? No im not.
Now if you have an issue with spark than yes an upgrade is needed, but for the majority of mild compression NA motors it isnt.
10-31-2009, 10:42 AM
#92
Wow. If its working then yes. a car makes hp through burning fuel. Energy is stored in fuel, adding the spark and air allow you to ignite the fuel and therefore release the energy. The sparks only role in makin HP is igniting the mixture. If it is doing it properly than you will not see a gain from ignition upgrades plain and simple.
Think of it this way.
I have a cigarette, to smoke it I need a cigarette (fuel), ignition(spark), and me breathing in(air).
Say I want to get more smoke(hp) while smoking, I can go to a bigger cigarette(more fuel) and breathe in more (more air), but if my original ignition, lets say a lighter, is lighting it fine, am I really going to gain anything by lighting my smoke with a torch? No im not.
Now if you have an issue with spark than yes an upgrade is needed, but for the majority of mild compression NA motors it isnt.
Think of it this way.
I have a cigarette, to smoke it I need a cigarette (fuel), ignition(spark), and me breathing in(air).
Say I want to get more smoke(hp) while smoking, I can go to a bigger cigarette(more fuel) and breathe in more (more air), but if my original ignition, lets say a lighter, is lighting it fine, am I really going to gain anything by lighting my smoke with a torch? No im not.
Now if you have an issue with spark than yes an upgrade is needed, but for the majority of mild compression NA motors it isnt.
10-31-2009, 12:50 PM
#93
If people here knew anything about explosives, they would understand that what generates force is the rate of combustion. The faster the rate, the more pressure, which is more torque.
You might not be able to visualize this, but it actually takes a little while for a weaker spark to ignite a fuel mixture than a hotter spark. Again, we are talking in milliseconds here, but at higher rpm, the quicker you can light off the air/fuel mixture, the less timing you'll need, and the more torque you'll make.
You might not be able to visualize this, but it actually takes a little while for a weaker spark to ignite a fuel mixture than a hotter spark. Again, we are talking in milliseconds here, but at higher rpm, the quicker you can light off the air/fuel mixture, the less timing you'll need, and the more torque you'll make.
10-31-2009, 02:41 PM
#94
Went to the dyno today and did a back to back dyno on the truck coils/stock ls1 coils. I did two dynos with each. The results were I gained 3 Hp and 2 Tq going back with my ls1 coils. So basically in my application they did not gain anything. My car is a 99 z28 cam only full bolt on car. Take it as you will. This is just my results.
10-31-2009, 03:29 PM
#95
I've been biting my lip for some time, waiting to do some real oscilloscope testing with both coils in question before posting anything, but I can't keep quite any longer.
Too many people posting in this thread have no idea how an ignition system and/or coil works.
First thing, even the lowly LS coils are probably CAPABLE of 25Kv output. That is MORE than enough spark energy to jump a wide gap, and light a very dense charge.
(potential Kv output = # of secondary windings x # of primary windings. Primary magnetic field collapses when circuit is interrupted. Several hundred volts of primary "potential" jumps across to the secondary winding looking for a path to ground, and is multiplied by the amount of secondary windings.)
Just because a coil is CAPABLE of XX amount of spark energy, DOES NOT mean that that is the coils NORMAL OUTPUT. The secondary output of a coil is determined by the secondary resistance, WHICH INCLUDES the density of the charge. FWIW, most of the time the spark energy across the plug gap is only about 1-3 Kv. I have countless scope screen shots showing this. Of course, the higher the cylinder pressure, the higher the Kv required to jump the gap and hence light the charge.
Just because the truck coils are capable of a higher spark energy, DOES NOT mean that's what it's going to put out.
As soon as I can get my hands on a set or two of the truck coils, I'll do some actual scientific testing to try and come up with some real numbers, other than chassis dyno numbers. So far, my research for any type of specs on them is proving to be futile.
Too many people posting in this thread have no idea how an ignition system and/or coil works.
First thing, even the lowly LS coils are probably CAPABLE of 25Kv output. That is MORE than enough spark energy to jump a wide gap, and light a very dense charge.
(potential Kv output = # of secondary windings x # of primary windings. Primary magnetic field collapses when circuit is interrupted. Several hundred volts of primary "potential" jumps across to the secondary winding looking for a path to ground, and is multiplied by the amount of secondary windings.)
Just because a coil is CAPABLE of XX amount of spark energy, DOES NOT mean that that is the coils NORMAL OUTPUT. The secondary output of a coil is determined by the secondary resistance, WHICH INCLUDES the density of the charge. FWIW, most of the time the spark energy across the plug gap is only about 1-3 Kv. I have countless scope screen shots showing this. Of course, the higher the cylinder pressure, the higher the Kv required to jump the gap and hence light the charge.
Just because the truck coils are capable of a higher spark energy, DOES NOT mean that's what it's going to put out.
As soon as I can get my hands on a set or two of the truck coils, I'll do some actual scientific testing to try and come up with some real numbers, other than chassis dyno numbers. So far, my research for any type of specs on them is proving to be futile.
10-31-2009, 05:00 PM
#96
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I've been biting my lip for some time, waiting to do some real oscilloscope testing with both coils in question before posting anything, but I can't keep quite any longer.
Too many people posting in this thread have no idea how an ignition system and/or coil works.
First thing, even the lowly LS coils are probably CAPABLE of 25Kv output. That is MORE than enough spark energy to jump a wide gap, and light a very dense charge.
(potential Kv output = # of secondary windings x # of primary windings. Primary magnetic field collapses when circuit is interrupted. Several hundred volts of primary "potential" jumps across to the secondary winding looking for a path to ground, and is multiplied by the amount of secondary windings.)
Just because a coil is CAPABLE of XX amount of spark energy, DOES NOT mean that that is the coils NORMAL OUTPUT. The secondary output of a coil is determined by the secondary resistance, WHICH INCLUDES the density of the charge. FWIW, most of the time the spark energy across the plug gap is only about 1-3 Kv. I have countless scope screen shots showing this. Of course, the higher the cylinder pressure, the higher the Kv required to jump the gap and hence light the charge.
Just because the truck coils are capable of a higher spark energy, DOES NOT mean that's what it's going to put out.
As soon as I can get my hands on a set or two of the truck coils, I'll do some actual scientific testing to try and come up with some real numbers, other than chassis dyno numbers. So far, my research for any type of specs on them is proving to be futile.
Too many people posting in this thread have no idea how an ignition system and/or coil works.
First thing, even the lowly LS coils are probably CAPABLE of 25Kv output. That is MORE than enough spark energy to jump a wide gap, and light a very dense charge.
(potential Kv output = # of secondary windings x # of primary windings. Primary magnetic field collapses when circuit is interrupted. Several hundred volts of primary "potential" jumps across to the secondary winding looking for a path to ground, and is multiplied by the amount of secondary windings.)
Just because a coil is CAPABLE of XX amount of spark energy, DOES NOT mean that that is the coils NORMAL OUTPUT. The secondary output of a coil is determined by the secondary resistance, WHICH INCLUDES the density of the charge. FWIW, most of the time the spark energy across the plug gap is only about 1-3 Kv. I have countless scope screen shots showing this. Of course, the higher the cylinder pressure, the higher the Kv required to jump the gap and hence light the charge.
Just because the truck coils are capable of a higher spark energy, DOES NOT mean that's what it's going to put out.
As soon as I can get my hands on a set or two of the truck coils, I'll do some actual scientific testing to try and come up with some real numbers, other than chassis dyno numbers. So far, my research for any type of specs on them is proving to be futile.
GREAT info man!
10-31-2009, 05:20 PM
#97
This thread has been all over the place.
When we modify our engines we typically have to go thru a process of eliminating choke points in order to improve performance incrimentally. The choke point moves around from component to component as you alleviate the previous one. At 400 hp, the choke point isn't the ignition. There are alot better places to spend your money. That's the point that I believe that Shawn is trying to make.
Jmilz is correct in that more spark almost always yields more power but how much and at what cost? On a stock car, $600 will buy you a cam and almost a set of springs. Properly selected, it could be good for 30-50 rwhp. $600 for a set of truck coils to yield 3-5hp is not the best use of a budget.
When we modify our engines we typically have to go thru a process of eliminating choke points in order to improve performance incrimentally. The choke point moves around from component to component as you alleviate the previous one. At 400 hp, the choke point isn't the ignition. There are alot better places to spend your money. That's the point that I believe that Shawn is trying to make.
Jmilz is correct in that more spark almost always yields more power but how much and at what cost? On a stock car, $600 will buy you a cam and almost a set of springs. Properly selected, it could be good for 30-50 rwhp. $600 for a set of truck coils to yield 3-5hp is not the best use of a budget.
10-31-2009, 06:12 PM
#98
Oh and as for the dwell times the Megasquirt vid talks about them.....Hey Sweet check out my sig....(just poking)....
Last edited by Petraszewsky; 10-31-2009 at 06:39 PM. Reason: To make a funny...haha
10-31-2009, 06:14 PM
#99
10-31-2009, 06:29 PM
#100
edcmat-l1, if you do that testing, please keep in mind what the stock dwell settings are in vehicles running the respective coils you're testing. While you're right about what different coils might be capable of...how long are they capable of it if the dwell time is cranked up higher than stock? Stock dwell settings from a truck are different than an LS1 car, and stock dwell settings seem to result in coils lasting a very very very long time...when I put my D585's on my Camaro, I also opened up the tune from my friends 2002 Yukon that I did this past spring (that has D585's stock) and copied ALL dwell related stuff into my cars tune.
So me personally, I'd like to know what they're all doing, at the dwell settings that GM decided to control them with, not what they're capable of if the dwell goes up...because none of us on here have the equipment to do a failure or life cycle analysis on the coils if the dwell times are turned up.
Last edited by Mike454SS; 10-31-2009 at 06:38 PM.