Z28camaroLS1

iTrader: (13)

Tony, this is not quite correct. The 510 HP on this dyno sheet are flywheel horse power NOT RWHP. So Gilles setup didn't make 600 flywheel HP as you said. According to the dyno sheet it made 510 HP flywheel and 436 RWHP.

chevydan

iTrader: (4)

Take it to the track your MPH and weight will calculate your hp.

Tony Mamo @ AFR

iTrader: (13)

I dont think so (but it is confusing....LOL)

The chassis dyno should be measuring RWHP and RWTQ (in newton-meters) which I converted to pound-feet.....look at the stock C5 Z06 gragh where it produces 342 RWHP.....that's certainly not flywheel power.....thats power at the rear wheels and in fact a fairly conservative figure at that (as I touched on a few posts up).

I also calculated the newton meter conversion to pound-feet at peak power (using the figures I saw @ 6300 RPM) and used the HP formula to see if that got me in the low 500's and thats exactly what it did.

Im fairly sure the HP is exactly what it says at the tire....not at the flywheel but the European twist makes it interesting!

I know DynaPak dyno's also say flywheel torque when it was really TQ measured at the tire....it was confusing when guys posted those dyno sheets as well.

Hopefully Brice can clear it up tomorrow....

Thanks,
Tony

PS.....And there is no way Gilles engine produced 510 at the crank....my 346 produced 40 more than that (550 flywheel) with stock 205's and it was a very similar build with less cubes, less airflow, and a slightly smaller cam.

Z28camaroLS1

iTrader: (13)

Tony,

in europe the results of the dyno run are given in as follows:

-flywheel horse power: blue in color in the graph: DINmtr ie. din motor (equivalent to SAE fwhp)
-rear wheel horse power: red in color in the graph: DINwhl ie. din wheel (equivalent to SAE rwhp)
-FLYWHEEL torque: green in color in the graph: DINtrq ie din torque
Just don't forget the the given torque number in the graph is FLYWHEEL in newton meters. This is the reason why Brice stated to substract 16% order to get rear wheel torque.

Now have a look at the graph of the stock c5 Z06 it has rwhp (DINWheel) 342 (red in color) as you correctly mentioned and it is producing 401 flywhhel HP (DINmotor blue in color)
The dyno graph for Gillets new setup shows 436 rwhp (DINWheel) again red in color and 510 fwhp (DINmotor) blue in color.

Please don't get me wrong I'm just letting you know how dynos over here in europe are set up.

Tony Mamo @ AFR

iTrader: (13)

Thanks for the info....

So how is a chassis dyno giving flywheel numbers?? Some arbitrary percentage I assume which is a whole new can of worms to get started on.....LOL

A few things dont add up the more I look.....

Based on your input and clearing up the European method of displaying the data, Gilles dyno shows a motor or flywheel number of 510 (max) and a rear wheel of (supposedly) 436 max. Now check out the dyno a few below that one....the MN6 Camaro with the TFS 215's, and the big cam (VRX5), FAST 92 etc which shows a max of 520 motor HP but only 425 at the wheel which also sounds retarded low for that aggressive a combo. It should be well up in the mid/high 400's at least, not to mention why isn't it more at the tire if its supposedly more at the flywheel. Its just math and the relationship should be the same.

Z28Camaro, Im not aiming any of this on you....Im just speaking (typing) out loud trying to make sense of it all.

Alot of these numbers simply dont make sense. I would like to see the dyno of the 427 C6Z06 as well.....that would be interesting. Most of those lay down 450-460 at the tire bone stock right off the showroom floor.

Brice....can you post the C6Z dyno as well, and better yet perhaps overlay Gilles 6.0 build on top of it?

-Tony

Brice

Hi Christian
yep, the camaro Z28 too...
The loss is 16%, like mine with stock wheels.

On the first dyno, (505 hp), Gilles had already the replica wheels with PS2 on his car.

Brice

Z28CamaroLS1 : You're right !
You've got an european camaro (ugly rear flogs light), where are you from?

Brice

No that's not a arbitrary %.
The dyno operator has a procedure to find the transmission loss. (3 runs and 3 minutes for each car)

Brice

No the Camaro has a 3.73 rear end. That a 18% transmission loss.
With my C5 TFS 215/VRX5 I'm 524 fwhp -> 442

The Superflow dyno is able to estimate the transmission loss (that's interresting and it match very well with rear end change, I trust in it).
The C6 Z06 are 13% transmission loss according to the dyno, it's matching the GM numbers !

Brice

Do you really can believe than your setup can produce 100 hp more than a stock C6 Z06 ?

Gilles didn't want to put his wheels on the track. I've done it with my C5 TFS 215/VRX5.
Bad 60ft (2.2) 12.01 and 194 km/h (120.5 mph).
On the street race The Gilles car and the camaro are about the same (the camaro weight a lot more).
And I destroy the camaro with my corvette.
The camaro trap speed is 186 km/h (115.86 mph).

We haven't race Gilles corvette and my corvette, we race the camaro and gilles' corvette when I was tuning Gilles corvettes before the dyno day.
Bitburg track, Germany


About the dyno:
http://www.superflow.com/PDF/AutoDyn30.pdf
The dyno can Identify drivetrain frictional losses.

Z28camaroLS1

iTrader: (13)

Tony, I do understand your point. However, all Camaros I've had on the dyno over here had way more calculated transmission/rear end loss than any Corvette on the same dyno same day. I'm sure Brice will agree with me on this.


Brice, thanks for compliments I'm from Austria/Germany
BTW, have you ever been on a MAHA LS 3000 dyno? They are supposed to be very close to the SuperFlow.

miami993c297

iTrader: (6)

Something's wrong...in the dyno, in the measurement, by the operator...as it has been done and done multiple time...Wheel weight creates enormous differences in rwhp results, same day, same dyno, same car (race car as a test mule...)!!!

Tire deflection and tire friction are two nonlinear variables of a complexe equation a dyno software will have difficulties to calculate, add on the top MOI plus circumference dynamic variation...

Christian

Brice

I've dyno 40+ cars on this dyno. (stock wheels, run flat tire, aftermarket/replica wheels), the difference is not 'enormous', it's about 0.5%.
What do you mean by 'enormous' ???
don't forget a dyno is a tuning tool, to compare before/after result. Tires pressure change the rwhp too.
Here are differents cars, different result on the same dyno, it's more accurate than different cars on different dynos.
I will do a dyno run on my car with stock wheels and heavy replica wheels and post the results.

Tony Mamo @ AFR

iTrader: (13)

Brice,

What your not taking into consideration is when you hypothetically pluck a C6Z 427 out of the car and remove all the accessory's when you install it on an engine dyno its going to read notably higher. Also, most engine dyno's that I attend are tested using the STP correction factor versus the OEM's SAE rated power (note that in the USA, most engine data sessions are recorded in STP and most chassis dynos in SAE....why that is I dont know but I know its a fact). So when the smoke clears the Z06 engine would probably produce aound 535-540 HP on the engine dyno with no accessorys and the STP correction.

Lets look at stuff that cant be argued or manipulated which backs that data....my mild mannered 552 HP 346 that produced 462 on a Superflow chassis dyno and 475+ on most DJ's propelled my C5 coupe (which is a heavier than a C6Z) to 124-125 MPH traps speeds depending on the air quality (not mineshaft conditions either....from 500 - 1500 feet above sea level). Thats about the same trap speeds as most of the stock C6Z's have turned but in a lighter vehicle so even my 224/228 cammed 346 with AFR 205's (out of the box versions) made a little more power than the bone stock 427 (which has alot more potential in modified trim obviously).

I know for a fact Gilles 364 bolted to the same SF902 Engine dyno I have done all my testing on would produce a good bump more than my 346.....or something is wrong because it has more airflow ("Mamofied" AFR 205's), more cubes, and slightly more cam. Now admittedly 600 may have been a stretch which I back calculated based on improperly reading the European dyno data but it really should dyno in the mid/high 500's on the same engine dyno I have been doing all my testing on.

That said, chassis dyno numbers opens another huge can of worms because it does take into account all the driveline losses and inertia. My Vette would dyno worse if I had an LS7 clutch....my Vette would dyno worse if I didn't have an EWP.....my Vette would dyno worse if I had 60 lb rims and tires, etc. etc. but nothing has changed at the crank....its still making 552 HP.

Anyway....Ive spent too much time in this thread already but it has been interesting and certainly opened my eyes abit to the different format of testing used overseas.

Brice, can you post that overlay of the C6Z and Gilles data from the "mild mannered" 6 liter build.....I think that would be a cool comparison and it might help me better understand your dyno data because I have seen alot of stock C6Z data here in the States and I would like to see how they compare.

No rush....when you get a chance if you can make it happen that would be great

Cheers,
Tony

miami993c297

iTrader: (6)

Tire deflection and tire friction are two nonlinear variables of a complex equation a dyno software will have difficulties to calculate (to extracte the differences between two samples), add on the top MOI plus circumference dynamic variation...
From my previous post!!!

When you will get and understand those data from the tire manufactory...you will be able to understand what amount we are speaking about...like any professional engineer.

Conclusion is, when you want to make it in a professional accurate realistic manner, a RWHP dyno session must be processed with as minimal of difference as possible on the different variables if you want to compare between cars, just the way it is...

Otherwise, you are back to the purpose of those chassis dyno...which is tuning tool...

Christian

Brice

[QUOTE=miami993c297;13826972] deflection and tire friction are two nonlinear variables of a complex equation a dyno software will have difficulties to calculate (to extracte the differences between two samples), add on the top MOI plus circumference dynamic variation[QUOTE=miami993c297;13826972]



The best part of it is that the camaro and the corvette have the same replica from chino of them ...
The camaro has Falken 452 and the corvette Michelin PS2 ...
Crazy stuff ... Here folks compare dyno from different cars and different dyno and you compare wheels / tires ...

Brice

I will go to the dyno in 3 weeks ... with 2 stock C6 Z06 !
I've got a dyno, but the C6 Z06 is not stock (Headers).
I've not the rwhp, this is the customer dyno sheet. As I said before, 90% of the C6 Z06 doesn't have the 505 hp in our superflow dynos in France.


I've got a dyno from a Z06 but it's low. (like said before).
The Dyno shop told me they had another C6 Z06 : 503 hp (437 rwhp, 13% transmission loss)

Brice

Here is a C6 LS2 : callaway/honker,borla catback. Before/After tune.

It looks pretty accurate to stock numbers


Here is the C6 Z06 with Headers : (another tuner shop but same dyno. I've helped them to tune the car)



Here is a stock C6 Z06 on the same dyno. (I was not there during the dyno so nobody has asked the rwhp number)


I will go this 2 C6 Z06 stock this month. You will get the numbers ... and I will test different wheels for the miami's theory...

Brice

And this is a stock 2001 C5 MN6.
This is the GM official numbers...
That's why I think the dyno is very accurate, the differents numbers looks very real world numbers.
All cars are dynoed in 4th Gear.
I trust more a dyno where stock C5 are 295 rwhp than dynojet or other dyno where stock C5 are 320 rwhp ... (for 350 hp on the flywheel).
Again dyno are tuning tools. But my superflow dyno numbers are very relevant.

All the cars's numbers sounds good, except for the majority of C6 Z06 which appears lower than GM number. Anyone has stock C6 Z06 dyno on superflow ? Tony can you post them ? The theorical number (from GM) are 13% transmission loss : 440 rwhp

Brice

Your combo is very good.
A stock C5 has 295 rwhp according to my dyno, 424 rwhp with the AFR 205/224 cam/ all bolds on. That's a gain of 130 rwhp on the LS1 !!!! Do you expect more than than ?

When I was intake / LT headers / tuned, I was 335 rwhp.
Ron@Vengeance told me I will gain 100rwhp with VRX5/TFS 215/FAST 92 (and 5rwhp less with a VRX4)... now I'm 445 rwhp. The dyno sounds pretty good and accurate to me.

Okay VRX5/TFS215 are 470-475 on the dynojet ... but a stock C5 is not 295 rwhp on dynojet (which sounds biased btw).
Not to offense but in USA you have a big aftermarket businness (tuners, performances parts), I suspect high numbers dyno numbers are good for business. I think the customer 'd a big smile on his face when he's see that his stock car is a factory freak according to the dyno.
No way a stock C5 could be 320rwhp and a stock C5 Z06 370rwhp, that's what I read on the forum everyday.

oh and about the fbodies (I've dynoed 6 of it)... they dyno lower than C5 on my dyno. I've read on the forum the fbodies are underrated and dyno the same than a C5 stock vs stock, that's not true. (they are about 20 rwhp less on the dyno). But they are the same than corvettes for the same mods (LT headers / lid, catback).