WSsick

iTrader: (13)

Give all the V2 heads some time to be out on the market and you will see these.

98Z28CobraKiller

iTrader: (17)

That's pretty much the same came that I run in my LQ9 setup. I just dont have any advance in mine. I love the driveability. Sweet gains.

anthony soprano

iTrader: (1)

And it would stand to reason that those same people also possess the same cognitive capability to process the difference between marketing hype and technical substance. In other words, we don't need someone posting in every blessed cylinder head thread, "but look how much cheaper the L92s are!" We get it already. It's old news.

Tony Mamo @ AFR

iTrader: (13)

Bozzhawg

There are many reasons why I haven't directly responded to your questionable commentary till now....but just for the record and the benefit of others, I'm going to try and lay it out clearly for you.

What your simply having a hard time wrapping your head around is the fact that if a consumer is willing to spend the money for an optimized more efficient smaller head (with a higher velocity charge), it is possible to to make more peak power than a larger less efficient head (even with higher "peak" flow) as this exercise clearly proves. The best benefit however, which you also are quick to dismiss or ignore, is the fact the same scenario also comes with the added perk of a ton more part throttle response, better tip-in power in high gear, and better fuel economy as well.

Note in the paragraph above I did not mention L92 heads or AFR V2 heads.....Im speaking in general terms discussing cylinder head design not specific to brand name or type.

Also, most of the crowd hooked on the whole "L92 heads still make a bunch of low end torque" are always looking at WOT numbers on the dyno....a common pitfall I see in these arguments on the various threads. Fact is while the WOT numbers in the lower part of the curve aren't that bad in a good well thought out set-up (but still notably softer than a highly optimized cathedral design), the WOT numbers don't represent what the driver feels at part throttle and tip in.....till you actually experience both in the same vehicle you really cant appreciate the difference. At part throttle position (when you have very little airflow moving thru the engine) a very large port is much lazier and more susceptible to reversion issues (it's easier to change the direction of a slower moving column of air)....especially when a performance cam is implemented which increases overlap and reversion. Ask any of the older crowd that dealt with a similar situation 20+ years ago with rectangular and oval port BBC combinations. Hell ask Pat if you value his input....with a larger cam, the same compression and displacement, the off idle response of this new package is explosive in comparison to his former smaller cammed optimized L92 package. Retaining the same style cylinder head and adding the same 231 cam, a larger higher flowing CAI and a better flowing exhaust would have certainly improved the middle and higher RPM figures but wouldn't have helped the part throttle and low RPM characteristics at all (just the opposite in fact.....a small duration cam is in it's sweet spot at very low RPM).

Yes, the L92 heads move some air (thru a very large intake port).....yes they are quite inexpensive and represent "OK" value if you understand there are compromises included in that purchase.....yes they have a rather weak exhaust port, and yes you can make pretty decent power with them with a properly set up combination but they will NEVER deliver the type of power delivery Pat G. is currently experiencing. Not unless you fill that port with epoxy and remove all the dead air in that huge inefficient intake port. But then your L92 heads are no longer cheap and your still dealing with a host of other variables like worrying about chunks of epoxy working its way into your engine.

In a nutshell, Pat's new combo has the best of both worlds now....explosive bottom end and razor like part throttle response along with huge gains in peak torque and peak power. Its the have your cake and eat it to scenario....the end result of a carefully executed well optimized design. And yes the "cake" costs money.....no where did I claim duplicating Pat's results would be inexpensive....what "no compromise" approach to anything ever is??

Down the road when AFR decides to build an LS3/L92 style head I think it will be clear what needs to be done to improve and modify an architecture that does have alot of potential due to the raised intake runner and plenty of room for a very effective clean sheet design....in fact I look forward to the day AFR cuts me loose on that project.

Cheers,
Tony

ChucksZ06

iTrader: (9)

Yes you are right...and the good hp numbers will come from detailed heads, intake, and exhaust setups. There is a tendency to think a particular component is a larger contributor to the total hp of the engine than it really is. This is why you seldom see before and after dyno comparisons with no other changes to the engine but the heads. A few years ago a magazine did just that on an ls 5.3. The heads were milled to keep comp the same. The brand name expensive heads with high speed cnc'd ports produced 30 more rear wheel hp. I thought this was great but not earth shattering like many would have believed. Obviously when cams were changed the better heads gained a little more power than the stock heads. I think texas speed did a test of like 10 ls1 heads a while back and the hp numbers were within 10 hp from top to bottom. If the improvement is not dramatic then most of us would be hesitant to part with $3,000.00.

ultradriver10000

iTrader: (13)

Welp we'll see how my new 418 L92 headed engine ends up working out. Should have waited for some AFR's lol.

WSsick

iTrader: (13)

Is this confirmation that AFR has something in the works? I don't see you as person who minces words, so I believe you just let us in on a secret.

Depends on which head you go for. I believe Tony said the price on the V2 heads were kept the same or close (dont quote me) as the V1 heads. A lot of guys I see run the 205, which is now the 210 and I don't think an out of the box (low option) 210 head costing $3,000. Now, the bigger heads...probably. But those are guys looks for, as Tony said "no compromises" and that isn't cheap. The bigger head usually falls on bigger and/or more expensive setups, so that really isn't an issue.

For the common ported 243/5.3L head guys, yes, AFR money seems absurd. For me though, those hundreds, maybe $1,000 extra on even a 210cc head is worth it seeing the overall benefits of them, NOT just peak numbers...which everyone gets entirely too wrapped up in. I'm a broke college student at the moment so I cant afford them, but I can assure you I will be heading that route. Why? Because the budget setups make budget power. Sure I've seen some guys run LS6 heads & manifold with a big cam make good power, 440+, but those are few in number. Sweet, you make big power for 300rpms. Sounds like a massive turbo Supra (Yeah, I make 1000rwhp @ 7000rpms, but I only make 500rwhp til 6k, but who cares ITS 1000HP!)

No one ever posts dyno charts of part throttle or tip in, because those arent fun to brag on at shows, meets, the track etc. What is cool about having that power there is that those who use their cars on the street can have fun gettign around town without going ***** to the wall. That is what TSP's dynos did not show. People don't see that on dyno graphs, otherwise there would be even more AFR/big $$ head customers out there. And for the guys who just track their car and only need 5000+rpm numbers, the heads flow like crazy (both volume and speed) so they get whats best for them from the same head.

Personally, I'd rather have a car with an out of the box 210cc AFR and a 224 cam with an LS6 mani making 435rwhp peak than a car with slowing moving LS6 heads, FAST by Joe Blow, with an MS3 or bigger making 450rwhp peak. Big cam with bad heads will get you disappointing #s, but great heads with a bad cam will never disappoint. (For those who don't know, Tony began the FAST porting business. I just learned this a while back myself.)

Forgive my rant, I know i'm not one of the big guys and don't know anything close to do what do, but I felt another point of view could be helpful.....


back to the big boys

LS6

amaizing head

Spinmonster

OMG thank you!

I never bought into the "275cc ported intake runner flowing 355cfm" mentality. I got slammed forever when I wasnt impressed by the L92 and I definitely worked with them. Now the new found downside: the thin deck surface making them lift or crack with forced induction. This is another AFR benefit; the thick decks for forced induction.

Ill be at SEMA so if you can hook me up with a set of these 230's, Im in.

danf1000

iTrader: (2)

V2= 3600$
whoopedy doo intake= 1200$
New valvetrain= 215$

418 CI LS3=5100$

This thread is troubling.

Patrick G

iTrader: (14)

We did a bunch of dyno testing tonight. The MAF delete was worth a solid 5-6 rwhp. The 102mm throttle body was worth an additional 4rwhp. It was nice seeing dyno numbers well above 510rwhp, but for the added cost and tuning, I think I'm going to skip doing the 102TB and make this the best speed density tune on the planet with the stock 90mm TB.

We are running 3 mufflers now (really refined exhaust sound). I hope to have track times in the next weekend or two.

98Aggie

iTrader: (19)

If you were to run a bigger cam, the 102mm TB probablly would have netted more than the 4-5rwhp correct?

WSsick

iTrader: (13)

You need a top end for that shortblock...put the 2 together and that would be nasty.

Tony Mamo @ AFR

iTrader: (13)

Guys,

I feel the need to clarify the V2 230 AFR heads are being sold for the same price our V1 heads sold for (about $2500). We invested the time on our dime to offer you guys a better product without sharing the costs involved with any of you....and trust me when I tell you it was an extremely time consuming and costly venture. If the economy was stronger we would have likely attached a price increase to the new design but we opted not to.

We were also upfront about the fact Pats head were "tweaked" a bit by myself and also included lightweight valves for better high RPM valve control....that's what bumped the price to $3600 when the discussion came up what would it cost to duplicate this combo.

Regarding the comment about the "whoopedy doo intake", it is certainly a proven performer....just ask any of the customers I have helped that own one.

New valvetrain at $215?? Im not even sure what that pricing relates to here. These heads accept stock rockers no different than all our other cathedral offerings and of course also except Yella Terra Ultralites which are a common upgrade for those concerned with proper geometry and greatly extending the valve guide life of the cylinder heads.

Troubling?

Whats troubling is your lack of appreciation for what this thread represents....and that is the potential this combination offer in a relatively mild package if your willing to invest the time and money. If you dont have the ambition or dont want to spend the money required that is your choice but to "poo poo" on the results of what's presented here (which represents alot of time and money invested by Pat G. for the most part) seems very negative and a bit silly quite honestly.

Yes....it costs money to make big power (I will state that once again in spite of the fact it has been touched on a half dozen times in this thread alone), but believe me, alot of people have spent a bunch of coin and haven't made big power because their selection of parts weren't optimal....and that is a far worse situation (especially if your sitting in that seat) and you would be surprised to know just how often that happens I assure you.

-Tony

71 chevy

iTrader: (18)

i patiently wait for the track results.

98Aggie

iTrader: (19)

Were waiting for it to quit raining.

minytrker

iTrader: (13)

Give me a call when yall go to the track I'll do my best to make it out with my camaro.

NitrousExpress

iTrader: (4)

First I would like to say congratulations to pat G and mamo. The results are solid.

Here is my opinion on the L92 vs AFR heads. Well they shouldn't compete... at all. One is a stock casting with huge a huge port. The other an optimized cathedral aftermarket casting.

I think the biggest factor on choosing between them is honestly the rest of the car. I think everything should be in line as far as the money and aggressiveness of the build. If you are using basically off the shelf stuff on an iron block with a budget oriented converter, clearly the AFR head would be a more higher end option than the rest of the car. I think this guy needs to look at ported stock castings. 243's L92's something along those lines. I cant see it being worth it in this example to, not only drop the coin, but more so to optimize the setup to even give the AFR a chance to shine.

Now, if your willing to do things like a custom cam, saving for the better headers, doing your research to make sure you have a competent tuner, now the money and time for an AFR can really shine. All the low end, part throttle, razor sharp response can be seen and enjoyed on a car where the COMBINATION is correct. Now I do agree with Tony and Pat on this point, the difference is significant between a perfect SD tune,great heads, Correct cam and a more off the shelf setup.

Where I do seem to disagree is in the value of the L92 heads. A large majority of fbody owners already "compromised". How many guys when the first bought them would have bought a c5z is it was the same price? A lot I would assume. The l92 is a great head for a owner, like previously mentioned, is in a more budget car where the dyno numbers do mean something to them, and for the most part they just enjoy having a loud cam car to drive around in.

What I'm getting at is think both heads are Great options for different cars. They both have there place and can produce the results the owner was looking for.

1c62nv

iTrader: (3)

This thread is expensive

Tony Mamo @ AFR

iTrader: (13)

This type of torque and power output with explosive part throttle performance (and perfect drivability) is worth every penny!!