434 CID Engine Dyno results w/ AFR 245's
07-08-2011, 06:14 PM
#21
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Obviously extremely well.....365 CFM of high speed air coupled with an extremely efficient exhaust port is a recipe for success. I bet you could see close to four digits at the wheel at less than 12 PSI. Think about it....this engine is making close to 700 normally aspirated....with a reasonably efficient turbo set-up it would be a cinch to add 50% to the power output of this engine at moderate boost levels.
Cheers,
Tony
Cheers,
Tony
07-09-2011, 12:59 PM
#22
Tony,
I assume these heads would also do great on my new 11.5:1 441ci. (4.125 x 4.125). I was going to use ported LS7 heads and ported LS7 intake.
Which do you think would make more power? And with which intake?
I still haven't decided which heads/intake to buy.
Cam hasen't been chosen yet either? I'd like to go a little aggressive, definitely allot more than the one in my sig thats in my 427ci, which idles close to stock feel, very smooth. So I can handle allot more.
100% street car. N/A.
Thanks.
.
I assume these heads would also do great on my new 11.5:1 441ci. (4.125 x 4.125). I was going to use ported LS7 heads and ported LS7 intake.
Which do you think would make more power? And with which intake?
I still haven't decided which heads/intake to buy.
Cam hasen't been chosen yet either? I'd like to go a little aggressive, definitely allot more than the one in my sig thats in my 427ci, which idles close to stock feel, very smooth. So I can handle allot more.
100% street car. N/A.
Thanks.
.
07-11-2011, 06:29 AM
#23
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These 245's are a great head for the money. Im running them on my Tick Performance built 416 and they made 535 rwhp through a th350,steel drive shaft, 12 bolt w/ 4.10's on a nitrous tune. Made 785 rwhp on an .82 jet. :-D
07-11-2011, 05:03 PM
#24
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07-11-2011, 08:20 PM
#25
Tony,
I assume these heads would also do great on my new 11.5:1 441ci. (4.125 x 4.125). I was going to use ported LS7 heads and ported LS7 intake.
Which do you think would make more power? And with which intake? I still haven't decided which heads/intake to buy.
Cam hasen't been chosen yet either? I'd like to go a little aggressive, definitely allot more than the one in my sig thats in my 427ci, which idles close to stock feel, very smooth. So I can handle allot more.
100% street car. N/A.
Thanks.
I assume these heads would also do great on my new 11.5:1 441ci. (4.125 x 4.125). I was going to use ported LS7 heads and ported LS7 intake.
Which do you think would make more power? And with which intake? I still haven't decided which heads/intake to buy.
Cam hasen't been chosen yet either? I'd like to go a little aggressive, definitely allot more than the one in my sig thats in my 427ci, which idles close to stock feel, very smooth. So I can handle allot more.
100% street car. N/A.
Thanks.
IMO the LS7 style heads are better suited on engines you really plan to spin hard....they have been out long enough for most guys to see in an average reasonably aggressive combination most results fall in the 550 - 600 RWHP range with 600 ish being much less frequent the say 560 RWHP.
The engine featured in this thread should hopefully make 575 or better depending on the dyno but it will have a really stout torque curve that you would really appreciate if you were to compare it to an LS7 headed engine that made similar peak numbers.
My personal engine (on the dyno in less than a month) is a little larger and I'm catering it more towards street/strip (as opposed to road race) so Im willing to sacrifice a little bottom to get more top but having more cubes to work with allows me to throw away 20 ft/lbs down low to get an extra 15 HP at the top of the curve where big motors want to roll over quickly. In fact cammed slightly differently (or even the same cam positioned in the engine a bit more retarded) John's 434 would have made 10-15 more ponies at the expense of about the same torque loss under 4K or so. However, with John's primary focus being the road course, that trade wouldn't have made as much sense....that extra torque might be handy coming off a corner without having to down-shift and upset the chassis.
Another consideration might be the fact it's easier to make big power with the large port rect heads (LS3/LS7 etc.)...you just have to mind the rest of the curve more if you care about a more balanced package. However, if you know how to take the most advantage of an optimized high flow cathedral set-up, when the smoke clears its an extremely explosive package that takes less RPM to extract all it has to offer and feel alot better at lower part throttle operation. The same engine would feel 30 cubic inches larger (with the optimized cathedral set-up) if you had a chance to experience the exact same package with a similar sized cam and an LS7 head/intake combo instead.
Once again though....part throttle crispness and low RPM roll on power (also referred to as "tip in") is almost impossible to quantify and never discussed a whole lot, but once you feel it push you in the seat (at low RPM), its hard to be as excited about a car with similar peak power that doesn't have it. The car is just so much more fun to drive 90% of the time although once you start getting into the low/mid 400 CID range.....its almost difficult for an engine to feel soft down low...its all relative.
Whats the bottom line....if you can achieve your peak power goals with an optimized cathedral head, you will have a fatter meatier power curve thats significantly stronger thru the lower/middle part of the curve....and significantly better part throttle response and drivability. If big power and more RPM is your primary focus, an LS7 based combination may better fit your needs. Im hoping for the best of both worlds with my personal engine combo that I will feature shortly....peak power that alot of stout LS7 combo's would be envious of but with a tremendous torque curve as well. It just takes alot of parts optimizing and $$$ to get there.
Hope this helps or at least gets the gears turning!
-Tony
Last edited by Tony Mamo @ AFR; 07-11-2011 at 09:15 PM.
07-12-2011, 10:14 PM
#27
It really depends on how much you value low/midrange torque. A properly set-up high flowing cathedral head will make a bunch more torque down low (30-45 ft/lbs)....some of this due to the smaller high speed port design....some of it due to the longer runner intake manifolds (a FAST cathedral has longer runners than a FAST LS7 style intake).
IMO the LS7 style heads are better suited on engines you really plan to spin hard....they have been out long enough for most guys to see in an average reasonably aggressive combination most results fall in the 550 - 600 RWHP range with 600 ish being much less frequent the say 560 RWHP.
The engine featured in this thread should hopefully make 575 or better depending on the dyno but it will have a really stout torque curve that you would really appreciate if you were to compare it to an LS7 headed engine that made similar peak numbers.
My personal engine (on the dyno in less than a month) is a little larger and I'm catering it more towards street/strip (as opposed to road race) so Im willing to sacrifice a little bottom to get more top but having more cubes to work with allows me to throw away 20 ft/lbs down low to get an extra 15 HP at the top of the curve where big motors want to roll over quickly. In fact cammed slightly differently (or even the same cam positioned in the engine a bit more retarded) John's 434 would have made 10-15 more ponies at the expense of about the same torque loss under 4K or so. However, with John's primary focus being the road course, that trade wouldn't have made as much sense....that extra torque might be handy coming off a corner without having to down-shift and upset the chassis.
Another consideration might be the fact it's easier to make big power with the large port rect heads (LS3/LS7 etc.)...you just have to mind the rest of the curve more if you care about a more balanced package. However, if you know how to take the most advantage of an optimized high flow cathedral set-up, when the smoke clears its an extremely explosive package that takes less RPM to extract all it has to offer and feel alot better at lower part throttle operation. The same engine would feel 30 cubic inches larger (with the optimized cathedral set-up) if you had a chance to experience the exact same package with a similar sized cam and an LS7 head/intake combo instead.
Once again though....part throttle crispness and low RPM roll on power (also referred to as "tip in") is almost impossible to quantify and never discussed a whole lot, but once you feel it push you in the seat (at low RPM), its hard to be as excited about a car with similar peak power that doesn't have it. The car is just so much more fun to drive 90% of the time although once you start getting into the low/mid 400 CID range.....its almost difficult for an engine to feel soft down low...its all relative.
Whats the bottom line....if you can achieve your peak power goals with an optimized cathedral head, you will have a fatter meatier power curve thats significantly stronger thru the lower/middle part of the curve....and significantly better part throttle response and drivability. If big power and more RPM is your primary focus, an LS7 based combination may better fit your needs. Im hoping for the best of both worlds with my personal engine combo that I will feature shortly....peak power that alot of stout LS7 combo's would be envious of but with a tremendous torque curve as well. It just takes alot of parts optimizing and $$$ to get there.
Hope this helps or at least gets the gears turning!
-Tony
IMO the LS7 style heads are better suited on engines you really plan to spin hard....they have been out long enough for most guys to see in an average reasonably aggressive combination most results fall in the 550 - 600 RWHP range with 600 ish being much less frequent the say 560 RWHP.
The engine featured in this thread should hopefully make 575 or better depending on the dyno but it will have a really stout torque curve that you would really appreciate if you were to compare it to an LS7 headed engine that made similar peak numbers.
My personal engine (on the dyno in less than a month) is a little larger and I'm catering it more towards street/strip (as opposed to road race) so Im willing to sacrifice a little bottom to get more top but having more cubes to work with allows me to throw away 20 ft/lbs down low to get an extra 15 HP at the top of the curve where big motors want to roll over quickly. In fact cammed slightly differently (or even the same cam positioned in the engine a bit more retarded) John's 434 would have made 10-15 more ponies at the expense of about the same torque loss under 4K or so. However, with John's primary focus being the road course, that trade wouldn't have made as much sense....that extra torque might be handy coming off a corner without having to down-shift and upset the chassis.
Another consideration might be the fact it's easier to make big power with the large port rect heads (LS3/LS7 etc.)...you just have to mind the rest of the curve more if you care about a more balanced package. However, if you know how to take the most advantage of an optimized high flow cathedral set-up, when the smoke clears its an extremely explosive package that takes less RPM to extract all it has to offer and feel alot better at lower part throttle operation. The same engine would feel 30 cubic inches larger (with the optimized cathedral set-up) if you had a chance to experience the exact same package with a similar sized cam and an LS7 head/intake combo instead.
Once again though....part throttle crispness and low RPM roll on power (also referred to as "tip in") is almost impossible to quantify and never discussed a whole lot, but once you feel it push you in the seat (at low RPM), its hard to be as excited about a car with similar peak power that doesn't have it. The car is just so much more fun to drive 90% of the time although once you start getting into the low/mid 400 CID range.....its almost difficult for an engine to feel soft down low...its all relative.
Whats the bottom line....if you can achieve your peak power goals with an optimized cathedral head, you will have a fatter meatier power curve thats significantly stronger thru the lower/middle part of the curve....and significantly better part throttle response and drivability. If big power and more RPM is your primary focus, an LS7 based combination may better fit your needs. Im hoping for the best of both worlds with my personal engine combo that I will feature shortly....peak power that alot of stout LS7 combo's would be envious of but with a tremendous torque curve as well. It just takes alot of parts optimizing and $$$ to get there.
Hope this helps or at least gets the gears turning!
-Tony
So an LS7 headed and intaked 441ci is probably my best bet. And I assume I'll still have a car that will be a monster from a dig..........
So..what do you offer in the LS7 stuff........????
.
07-14-2011, 08:33 PM
#28
Hmmmm. I've always figured it this way. I want my 441ci set up to shine from 40/50 mph to about 150 mph. So I figure if I do what you're doing, and wanting the up-top power over the low/mid torque........I'm sure a 441ci will still have pavement melting low/mid power. Its not like if I go for the up-top power for roll runs the car will be a dog out of the hole from a dig to say 60 mph....right?
So an LS7 headed and intaked 441ci is probably my best bet. And I assume I'll still have a car that will be a monster from a dig..........
So..what do you offer in the LS7 stuff........????
.
So an LS7 headed and intaked 441ci is probably my best bet. And I assume I'll still have a car that will be a monster from a dig..........
So..what do you offer in the LS7 stuff........????
.
Lets keep this thread on track and PM or call me if your interested in further disusing anything for your personal build etc. You may also want to wait till I dyno my 454 with the AFR 245's and check out those results. Who knows....it might be exactly or very close to what your looking for and it would be less money than a "set on kill" build with square port heads....not to mention make a bunch more torque in the lower and middle portion of the power curve.
Regards,
Tony
07-15-2011, 07:02 AM
#30
Ive helped a handful of folks with some rect port LS7 stuff....I've used factory castings....Allpro, Brodix, etc. Just depends on how crazy you want to go, what type of block and valvetrain you plan to run, and how much your willing to spend of course.
Lets keep this thread on track and PM or call me if your interested in further disusing anything for your personal build etc. You may also want to wait till I dyno my 454 with the AFR 245's and check out those results. Who knows....it might be exactly or very close to what your looking for and it would be less money than a "set on kill" build with square port heads....not to mention make a bunch more torque in the lower and middle portion of the power curve.
Regards,
Tony
Lets keep this thread on track and PM or call me if your interested in further disusing anything for your personal build etc. You may also want to wait till I dyno my 454 with the AFR 245's and check out those results. Who knows....it might be exactly or very close to what your looking for and it would be less money than a "set on kill" build with square port heads....not to mention make a bunch more torque in the lower and middle portion of the power curve.
Regards,
Tony
Thanks.
.
07-20-2011, 01:49 PM
#32
They would work on a 4" bore and larger.....more ideal on say an LS3 (4.065), and obviously very ideal on a 4.125+
But....even an LS2 block (4" bore application) has less shrouding issues than say a 3.900 bore engine running a 2.080 diameter valve (which is not an uncommon situation in larger aftermarket or OEM ported heads).
My point being even on a 4" bore, the 245 heads could be considered assuming your building an engine aggressive enough to utilize that large an intake runner....the size of the intake valve (2.165) doesn't pose a problem.
Hope this helps!
-Tony
But....even an LS2 block (4" bore application) has less shrouding issues than say a 3.900 bore engine running a 2.080 diameter valve (which is not an uncommon situation in larger aftermarket or OEM ported heads).
My point being even on a 4" bore, the 245 heads could be considered assuming your building an engine aggressive enough to utilize that large an intake runner....the size of the intake valve (2.165) doesn't pose a problem.
Hope this helps!
-Tony
08-27-2011, 08:25 PM
#33
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Hi everyone,
I would've posted up sooner but I've had a fair amount of business travel this summer. As Tony might have mentioned, I grenaded my modified LS1 late last year at Buttonwillow track in Bakersfield. I was being pushed by a C6 Z06 and a ZR1 which I didn't want to catch me and I was pretty aggressive on the throttle turning onto the long straight in front of the PIT area. Hit 7000 rpm as I shifted to 4th and the motor let go in a spectacular way. In about 2 seconds, it bucked, smoke poured out the back, oil pressure went to zero and it felt like I'd just drove over a rumble strip until I could get the clutch depressed and man handle it off the track without power steering. As I hopped out of the car to look under the hood, geez I had an engine fire from below on both sides of the block rising up towards my fuel lines! Fortunately I carry a fire extinguisher and quickly put out the fire.
What had happened was three cylinders were gone....pistons and rods were multched up into small pieces. A hole on each side of the block sprayed oil onto my headers. When the oil pressure dropped out, my accusump kicked in another 3 quarts oil onto the fire. The engine was toast only salvaging the oil pan and the FAST90 intake. On the plus side, I sold the block and scrap for $59 at a re-cycle center
Then I made a phone call to my friend Tony and we conspired to build up an even better NA motor with more power and torque. As Tony mentioned, I like to drive it on the street occasionally but mostly on the road course and sometimes at the drag strip. Tony noodled on it for a few days and came up with his prescription 434ci motor as you can see the results earlier. We haven't made it to the chassis dyno yet but so far just street tuning to get it's drivability set up. I have to say, my last NA motor dyno'd at 492 rwhp and 454 torque and this motor is scary fun. With the torque it has, it comes on quick and like a freight train. It revs up so fast the stock C5 tachometer literally can't keep up (thank goodness for my shift light).
BTW, for comparison I also own a tuned stock 2008 Z06 (427 LS7 engine with CAI). The other evening after driving my C5 with the new motor, I got on the Z06 just for fun and wondered what the heck happened to the acceleration? OMG....there's no comparison
Just for fun I'll post up some pics from Buttonwillow of the car afire and a few pistons missing when I pulled the AFR205 heads. And later on after we get it on the dyno Tony will post up the final results. My hats off for Tony's excellent build of my new race motor!
-John (cscokd)
PS....Once again I apologize for not getting back on here sooner!!
Here's the Pic!
I would've posted up sooner but I've had a fair amount of business travel this summer. As Tony might have mentioned, I grenaded my modified LS1 late last year at Buttonwillow track in Bakersfield. I was being pushed by a C6 Z06 and a ZR1 which I didn't want to catch me and I was pretty aggressive on the throttle turning onto the long straight in front of the PIT area. Hit 7000 rpm as I shifted to 4th and the motor let go in a spectacular way. In about 2 seconds, it bucked, smoke poured out the back, oil pressure went to zero and it felt like I'd just drove over a rumble strip until I could get the clutch depressed and man handle it off the track without power steering. As I hopped out of the car to look under the hood, geez I had an engine fire from below on both sides of the block rising up towards my fuel lines! Fortunately I carry a fire extinguisher and quickly put out the fire.
What had happened was three cylinders were gone....pistons and rods were multched up into small pieces. A hole on each side of the block sprayed oil onto my headers. When the oil pressure dropped out, my accusump kicked in another 3 quarts oil onto the fire. The engine was toast only salvaging the oil pan and the FAST90 intake. On the plus side, I sold the block and scrap for $59 at a re-cycle center
Then I made a phone call to my friend Tony and we conspired to build up an even better NA motor with more power and torque. As Tony mentioned, I like to drive it on the street occasionally but mostly on the road course and sometimes at the drag strip. Tony noodled on it for a few days and came up with his prescription 434ci motor as you can see the results earlier. We haven't made it to the chassis dyno yet but so far just street tuning to get it's drivability set up. I have to say, my last NA motor dyno'd at 492 rwhp and 454 torque and this motor is scary fun. With the torque it has, it comes on quick and like a freight train. It revs up so fast the stock C5 tachometer literally can't keep up (thank goodness for my shift light).
BTW, for comparison I also own a tuned stock 2008 Z06 (427 LS7 engine with CAI). The other evening after driving my C5 with the new motor, I got on the Z06 just for fun and wondered what the heck happened to the acceleration? OMG....there's no comparison
Just for fun I'll post up some pics from Buttonwillow of the car afire and a few pistons missing when I pulled the AFR205 heads. And later on after we get it on the dyno Tony will post up the final results. My hats off for Tony's excellent build of my new race motor!
-John (cscokd)
PS....Once again I apologize for not getting back on here sooner!!
Here's the Pic!
Last edited by cscokd; 08-28-2011 at 12:02 AM.
09-05-2011, 12:13 PM
#35
THIS IS GREAT NEWS CONGRATS TONY AND 434 OWNER!!!!
2 days ago a buddy came to me askin me if i thought i could build him a 6-700 hp LS motor for his rock crawler. he has a 454 LSX with blower in his sand car and his slower rock buggy is gettin sold as he wants more power in a new buggy hes gonna have built. i said i think we could do that. i LOVE arf ANYTHING. so my first thought ( FYI pretty much open budget i can do whatever i want) was i need tonys help and a set of his heads. he helped me out with ported intake and cam selection on my 402 and it was spot on. so tony ill me gettin ahold of you about doing a BIG hp even bigger TQ build soon. there are some korks with this build that will be fun to work around....... as he comes from a blown motor he fears the NA wont have tip in or low end
( if a pack rat had not got in my car and chewed it to hell id let him drive the 205 headed 402 and he would know what tip in is lol) he also cannot run race gas and lots of the places we crawl at my not have anything better that 87 at the pump so thats something to think about.... but i will contact you soon thanks bud and CONGRATS again +1 cathedral baby
2 days ago a buddy came to me askin me if i thought i could build him a 6-700 hp LS motor for his rock crawler. he has a 454 LSX with blower in his sand car and his slower rock buggy is gettin sold as he wants more power in a new buggy hes gonna have built. i said i think we could do that. i LOVE arf ANYTHING. so my first thought ( FYI pretty much open budget i can do whatever i want) was i need tonys help and a set of his heads. he helped me out with ported intake and cam selection on my 402 and it was spot on. so tony ill me gettin ahold of you about doing a BIG hp even bigger TQ build soon. there are some korks with this build that will be fun to work around....... as he comes from a blown motor he fears the NA wont have tip in or low end
( if a pack rat had not got in my car and chewed it to hell id let him drive the 205 headed 402 and he would know what tip in is lol) he also cannot run race gas and lots of the places we crawl at my not have anything better that 87 at the pump so thats something to think about.... but i will contact you soon thanks bud and CONGRATS again +1 cathedral baby
09-05-2011, 11:01 PM
#36
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I'll take the NA torque over a forced induction motor any day now that I've been driving this 434. Instant torque with just a twitch of the pedal and you don't need to shift down either.
cscokd
cscokd
THIS IS GREAT NEWS CONGRATS TONY AND 434 OWNER!!!!
2 days ago a buddy came to me askin me if i thought i could build him a 6-700 hp LS motor for his rock crawler. he has a 454 LSX with blower in his sand car and his slower rock buggy is gettin sold as he wants more power in a new buggy hes gonna have built. i said i think we could do that. i LOVE arf ANYTHING. so my first thought ( FYI pretty much open budget i can do whatever i want) was i need tonys help and a set of his heads. he helped me out with ported intake and cam selection on my 402 and it was spot on. so tony ill me gettin ahold of you about doing a BIG hp even bigger TQ build soon. there are some korks with this build that will be fun to work around....... as he comes from a blown motor he fears the NA wont have tip in or low end ( if a pack rat had not got in my car and chewed it to hell id let him drive the 205 headed 402 and he would know what tip in is lol) he also cannot run race gas and lots of the places we crawl at my not have anything better that 87 at the pump so thats something to think about.... but i will contact you soon thanks bud and CONGRATS again +1 cathedral baby
2 days ago a buddy came to me askin me if i thought i could build him a 6-700 hp LS motor for his rock crawler. he has a 454 LSX with blower in his sand car and his slower rock buggy is gettin sold as he wants more power in a new buggy hes gonna have built. i said i think we could do that. i LOVE arf ANYTHING. so my first thought ( FYI pretty much open budget i can do whatever i want) was i need tonys help and a set of his heads. he helped me out with ported intake and cam selection on my 402 and it was spot on. so tony ill me gettin ahold of you about doing a BIG hp even bigger TQ build soon. there are some korks with this build that will be fun to work around....... as he comes from a blown motor he fears the NA wont have tip in or low end
( if a pack rat had not got in my car and chewed it to hell id let him drive the 205 headed 402 and he would know what tip in is lol) he also cannot run race gas and lots of the places we crawl at my not have anything better that 87 at the pump so thats something to think about.... but i will contact you soon thanks bud and CONGRATS again +1 cathedral baby 
