Finally found my dyno sheet, opinions please?
09-20-2011, 10:27 AM
#21
Thanks for the opinions guys. I was saving the other springs for the other heads and possibly a higher lift cam, do you think they would be ok with this cam or too much overkill?
They are the patriot gold dual .650 lift rated springs.
I guess I never considered VF much because it's always been a lot rougher and more prominent on the graphs I've seen with it.
They are the patriot gold dual .650 lift rated springs.
I guess I never considered VF much because it's always been a lot rougher and more prominent on the graphs I've seen with it.
09-20-2011, 12:03 PM
#23
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Agreed, those would be fine. I would however shim them .060" (assuming stock installed height) for best results. This along with retarding the cam will pick up SUBSTANTIAL power...
Shane
Shane
Thanks for the opinions guys. I was saving the other springs for the other heads and possibly a higher lift cam, do you think they would be ok with this cam or too much overkill?
They are the patriot gold dual .650 lift rated springs.
I guess I never considered VF much because it's always been a lot rougher and more prominent on the graphs I've seen with it.
They are the patriot gold dual .650 lift rated springs.
I guess I never considered VF much because it's always been a lot rougher and more prominent on the graphs I've seen with it.
09-20-2011, 01:16 PM
#26
So what would have caused these springs to not be enough even when they were new? The car hadn't even had an oil change before that first dyno run.
They were professionally installed by the shop my dad (mechanic) sends all his head work to and I know he checked them so I would assume he would have shimmed if they needed it unless there are just things different about ls heads than traditional in regards to how they are setup based on specs for coil bind, install height, etc. I don't know much about those things.
Either way I'm glad I might finally be on the right track to finding some of the power I've suspected was missing.
Should I be worried about damage to anything from running with the valve float for so long?
They were professionally installed by the shop my dad (mechanic) sends all his head work to and I know he checked them so I would assume he would have shimmed if they needed it unless there are just things different about ls heads than traditional in regards to how they are setup based on specs for coil bind, install height, etc. I don't know much about those things.
Either way I'm glad I might finally be on the right track to finding some of the power I've suspected was missing.
Should I be worried about damage to anything from running with the valve float for so long?
09-20-2011, 01:31 PM
#27
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What exactly was done to your heads when the springs were installed? Were they just milled or was a valve job done? If the installed height of the springs is too far out of spec the springs could resonate in a way which could cause valve bounce. I've run into this problem so often now it's usually the first thing I look at when a customer complains about low power levels or broken springs and lifters or camshaft delamination.
Shane
Shane
09-20-2011, 01:54 PM
#28
Let me start by saying I truly appreciate your help.
The heads were only sent to him to be surfaced. My dad prefers to always have aluminum heads surfaced before re-installation as a precaution.
He did not do a valve job and was told to shave the bare minimum to clean up the head surface. The stock 98 heads I took him we had installed springs on, which were sold to me by a member here as Comp 918s but they were in fact new stock springs in a comp box. The machinist called us to let us know something was wrong because he couldn't get the seat pressure up with normal shim increments, he thought something was wrong with the pockets or the heads had been tampered with.
I took him the 99 model heads and it clicked something was wrong besides the heads. So I ordered brand new PACs from a sponsor here and dropped them off with the machinist since it was easier for him to install them than using my dads spring compressor and he offered to install them for free. Worked out for me because the coils I had were for 99+ valve covers anyway...
The gaskets used were Fel Pro 9284 PT ordered through the local Parts Plus store.
EDIT:
I do want to add that the stock engine (sold to me advertised as just under 50k miles) had 2 damaged cam lobes and lifters, hence the reason the heads came off in the first place. Could something fishy be up and perhaps whatever caused the problem in the stock motor (attached to a automatic) is at work here?
Or perhaps I did not properly heat cycle the springs once I got the car running and they weakened.
The heads were only sent to him to be surfaced. My dad prefers to always have aluminum heads surfaced before re-installation as a precaution.
He did not do a valve job and was told to shave the bare minimum to clean up the head surface. The stock 98 heads I took him we had installed springs on, which were sold to me by a member here as Comp 918s but they were in fact new stock springs in a comp box. The machinist called us to let us know something was wrong because he couldn't get the seat pressure up with normal shim increments, he thought something was wrong with the pockets or the heads had been tampered with.
I took him the 99 model heads and it clicked something was wrong besides the heads. So I ordered brand new PACs from a sponsor here and dropped them off with the machinist since it was easier for him to install them than using my dads spring compressor and he offered to install them for free. Worked out for me because the coils I had were for 99+ valve covers anyway...
The gaskets used were Fel Pro 9284 PT ordered through the local Parts Plus store.
EDIT:
I do want to add that the stock engine (sold to me advertised as just under 50k miles) had 2 damaged cam lobes and lifters, hence the reason the heads came off in the first place. Could something fishy be up and perhaps whatever caused the problem in the stock motor (attached to a automatic) is at work here?
Or perhaps I did not properly heat cycle the springs once I got the car running and they weakened.
Last edited by thunderstruck507; 09-20-2011 at 02:35 PM.
09-20-2011, 04:24 PM
#29
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No problem, I hope we can figure out your issue.
Are your springs 1218's or 1518's? One is rated to .600" the other to .650". It makes a huge difference in how they should be set up with your cam.
Shane
Also, don't worry about the heat cycling and I can't really think of how the damage you are describing could translate to the new build unless the heads are damaged or were modified in some way.
Are your springs 1218's or 1518's? One is rated to .600" the other to .650". It makes a huge difference in how they should be set up with your cam.
Shane
Also, don't worry about the heat cycling and I can't really think of how the damage you are describing could translate to the new build unless the heads are damaged or were modified in some way.
09-20-2011, 04:35 PM
#30
They are the 1218s. They were brand new as I didn't want to risk getting screwed again.
Someone told me it could be pushrod deflection, but with a .080"wall comp rod I wouldn't think so.
If the springs are shimmed should the shims be visible just by removing the valve cover?
Someone told me it could be pushrod deflection, but with a .080"wall comp rod I wouldn't think so.
If the springs are shimmed should the shims be visible just by removing the valve cover?
09-20-2011, 06:10 PM
#31
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No way in the world it's pushrod deflection. What we really need here is your current installed height. That would tell us everything we need to know other than if there is an issue with the springs themselves. Just a reminder, you are using stock rockers, right?
Also to answer an earlier question, common damage points from this type of valvetrain instability would be:
broken or worn springs (excessively quick wear)
collapsed lifters
delamination of the cam lobes or lifter rollers themselves
rocker arm bearing damage
valve tips pitting
cracked are seized valve locks (If you have to use a hammer to disloge the locks then you have at one time or another floated the valves.)
Dropped or broken valve
Thanks,
Shane
Also to answer an earlier question, common damage points from this type of valvetrain instability would be:
broken or worn springs (excessively quick wear)
collapsed lifters
delamination of the cam lobes or lifter rollers themselves
rocker arm bearing damage
valve tips pitting
cracked are seized valve locks (If you have to use a hammer to disloge the locks then you have at one time or another floated the valves.)
Dropped or broken valve
Thanks,
Shane
09-21-2011, 08:43 AM
#35
Is there anything else I could check in the meantime? I found a place to order a Proform micrometer for ~$50 shipped if I can't find one to borrow.
EDIT:
Talked to my dad and he said the guy usually just checks for spring pressure and shims for that, do not think he even measures install height so that is likely the issue.
EDIT:
Talked to my dad and he said the guy usually just checks for spring pressure and shims for that, do not think he even measures install height so that is likely the issue.
Last edited by thunderstruck507; 09-21-2011 at 12:09 PM.
09-21-2011, 03:00 PM
#36
Think my dad and I have decided rather than spend the time/effort replacing or shimming springs, it is a great time to install the 799s I have.
I already have ARP headbolts and new head gaskets in a box, along with the Patriot duals. I need to order ARP moly lube for torquing the heads, valve spring shims, and would I still need the micrometer or would your suggestion of .060" shims be the same regardless of milling or head type?
I have a pushrod length tool to check for new pushrods once the heads are on.
I am also going to order an adjustable timing set and degree the cam to see where it's truly ground and then depending on my finding retard it 2* or 4* (likely 2*).
Any other suggestions? The heads will get a valve job, mild hand port, and I'm thinking a .020" mill unless that would be too much for 91 octane since that's all I can get here.
I already have ARP headbolts and new head gaskets in a box, along with the Patriot duals. I need to order ARP moly lube for torquing the heads, valve spring shims, and would I still need the micrometer or would your suggestion of .060" shims be the same regardless of milling or head type?
I have a pushrod length tool to check for new pushrods once the heads are on.
I am also going to order an adjustable timing set and degree the cam to see where it's truly ground and then depending on my finding retard it 2* or 4* (likely 2*).
Any other suggestions? The heads will get a valve job, mild hand port, and I'm thinking a .020" mill unless that would be too much for 91 octane since that's all I can get here.
09-23-2011, 01:19 PM
#38
Installed height is one aspect, but it is merely a reference to help you achieve the needed seat and nose pressure. The best thing to do is to take your springs to a local machine shop that has a high quality spring pressure tester and make sure your springs are in spec. They will tell you the exact installed height to achieve your specified seat and nose pressure, then they can sell you the appropriate shims or install them.
09-23-2011, 01:35 PM
#39
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I would go ahead and get the height mic. Once you get the heads machined, the stock installed height will be altered for sure if you are doing a valve job. You will need to know what that is before installing your patriots. I have measured enough patirot springs to give you accurate numbers to shim them to. Just let me know when you are ready.
Shane
Shane
09-23-2011, 01:45 PM
#40
Thanks, I will order the tool then.
I don't know of any good machine shops in the area and at this time driving back and forth to Texarkana or Tulsa to mess with springs isn't feasible, especially since I'm just going to change the heads and start over anyway.
Using stock thickness Felpros and 91 octane would .020" mill be good or should I go less to be safe? I will be tuning myself using a wideband so some room for error would be a plus.
I don't know of any good machine shops in the area and at this time driving back and forth to Texarkana or Tulsa to mess with springs isn't feasible, especially since I'm just going to change the heads and start over anyway.
Using stock thickness Felpros and 91 octane would .020" mill be good or should I go less to be safe? I will be tuning myself using a wideband so some room for error would be a plus.