Tony @ Mamo Motorsports

In getting more than double that comparing my ported FAST LS7 to my ported MSD LS7.....apples to apples with me personally handling both port jobs (the FAST guys upgrading to my ported MSD bought the FAST intakes from me previously of course).

I have documented four of my customers now swapping from a Mamo ported FAST to a Mamo ported MSD.....the least power gained was 22 and the most was 30 and they all picked up significant TQ as well (the last guy picked up 26 ft/lbs).

My point is a properly ported MSD is worth even larger gains than a properly ported FAST and Im not surprised by that being intimately familiar with both manifolds!

-Tony

Tuskyz28

Tony, have you seen where FAST is coming out with a Race runner option?

It'll be interesting to see a MSD vs the Race Runner Fast that's coming out soon. I'll really love to see some track times out the MSD. I still like the look of a FAST intake better. I'm not go knock the FAST intake as alot of guys is doing now. I've seen a old ported fast 90mm intake run 9s on motor on pump gas with a 427ci or bigger in a F bodies.

Tony @ Mamo Motorsports

Im not sure how quickly your going to see the shorter runners for the LS7 version but the problem with that is a ported MSD makes more power everywhere (big boost in midrange and a bunch more top end which I have previously highlighted). If you were to swap runners in the FAST you might get close to the same top end of the MSD but you would lose even more at lower RPM's from the shorter runner because shortening runners are always a give and take. There are many different design facets when it comes to building and engineering a manifold....but taking an existing design and shortening and lengthening runners will always amount to a give and take situation....no getting around it so the MSD is still the clear winner here.

You guys know I promoted the crap out of the FAST stuff for over a decade and have ported hundreds of them. The FAST cathedral is still the go to manifold for most street bound stock displacement engines but a ported MSD is certainly a good consideration if you have a stroker and can give up some TQ to gain HP (see this thread if you haven't already).

https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...orted-msd.html

But the LS7 platform is a different story entirely.....unfortunate for FAST (and fortunate for MSD), the guys in El Paso Texas have simply built a better mousetrap and while the MSD needs more porting work than the FAST to achieve the best it has to offer, the potential is there and the results are outstanding. I have numerous customers that swapped from a stock LS7 to my ported MSD and a 102 TB and have picked up 40 - 45 RWHP......thats retarded from a manifold swap and some of them that hit the track have backed up these gains with an increase in the vicinity of 4 MPH in their trap speed.

Exciting times if you're the lucky owner of an LS7 powerplant in your ride!



Hope this helps

-Tony

jmilz28

iTrader: (13)

This is f***ing outstanding, thanks for this info and your contribution to the LS community Tony!

Tuskyz28

Thanks for the reply Tony. Basically I feel like you saying this here.

FAST intake/Cathedral heads= milk and cookies
MSD intake/LS7 heads= milk and cookies

Tony @ Mamo Motorsports

Pretty much....but read that other thread....the MSD cathedral is the right choice for a stroker engine cathedral build...15 more RWHP and carries much better.....for a horsepower lover that's hard to say no to and losing 20 ft/lbs down low when you already have enough to go around becomes (possibly....application driven) an acceptable trade....you just need a bullet proof valvetrain to turn the higher R's that the MSD cathedral need to shine!

So to summarize....LS7 application...."MSD is milk and cookies"

Most typical cathedral applications (especially stock displacement) milk and cookies is the FAST set up. Stroker cathedral....see link above to determine which camp you fall into!

=)

big hammer

All your LS should rev 7000+!

Tuskyz28

Tony, I remember the thread. I remember also posting on it. The port work done on the MSD must really be MAGICAL cause out the box vs a FAST intake is pretty much neck to neck as you can see here by the link below where Richard Holderner tested alot allot of LS intakes. You'll see where the MSD only make 1 horsepower more than the Fast 102. I understand that you tested yourself back to back on ZO6 customers and I respect that but once both ported seems like to me they'll still be neck to neck.

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/20-ls1-intake-manifolds-tested/

big hammer

Is run the MSD on an engine that I plan on turning 7000-7500 rpm.

ss454327

iTrader: (10)

Is MSD going to make a version without the notch for the crossover or a tall version like the LSXRT?

Bill00Formula

iTrader: (4)

Wow those numbers are pretty amazing. So on my 427 w/ TFS 235 milled to yield 12:1 compression (otherwise untouched) and a fast 92 is it probable that I could gain 50-60 rwhp by going to say the RHS LS7 heads w/ your ported MSD intake w/ a similarly sized cam? Thanks

Tony @ Mamo Motorsports

You could easily pick that up with one of my entire top half combo's

I have recently released a new Mamo Motorsports LS7 head that I have been working on a long time (utilizing TFS castings).....its kick azz and the results have just started coming out lately with some of my customers hitting the chassis dyno's finally

Here is a link to a package I designed that set a new record for a heads/cam C6Z application on a very popular chassis dyno in Nor Cal....its a stingy dyno....a C6Z that rolls a touch over 600 on this dyno will trap 140 MPH (that's a big accomplishment N/A). The highest heads cam C6Z previously on this dyno was 618 RWHP....we rolled 642 RWHP.

Check out this thread....its pretty informative documenting the build (it has my new ported LS7's, my ported MSD, a custom cam I designed (not huge....247' @ .050), the valvetrain I spec'ed out etc.

http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/...d-install.html

Also here is a quick in car video (excuse the poor quality) of me driving that car and grabbing a few gears on a little one lane road (that's why I lifted so early in 4th!)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/njtmld8bod...ckage.mpg?dl=0




Also, this is an even better example of what's possible only stepping up to my new heads and ported MSD.....this guy already had a full bolt on set-up with LS7 heads as a baseline (a better baseline than your's Bill), and he picked up 81 RWHP with my new heads and ported MSD and he already had a ported LS7 FAST as a basline intake...we would have picked up 100 RWHP if his baseline was a stock LS7 intake.....so YES....I think you would see huge gains swapping to my new LS7 program!

http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/...post1592903050



Regards,
Tony

NAVYBLUE210

Bill
What is your current cam specs and Dyno/Trap Speed?

Tuskyz28

Bill car is on my thread I started "10 sec M6 N/A combos" his car runs 10.5s at 132 plus!! Not that many LS7 headed 427ci F body cars not doing. Most are stuck in the 127- 130 mph trap speed range.
I know vettes are trapping 130 plus that but they are lighter than the 4th gen camaros/firebirds.

Launch

Most naturally aspirated 400+ci LS7 Fbody stuck in 130mph? LOL

.....

https://ls1tech.com/forums/drag-raci...s-any-c-i.html


^The list on the first post isn't updated, read through the thread, a LS7 block and ported LS7 headed (old MTI heads) n/a 4th gen went 8.6 et's

Lots in the solid 9's @ over 135mph

Tony if you return to this thread, what power gain can I expect from swapping one of your ported MSD versus STOCK GM LS7 intake. thanks

Tuskyz28

Launch- Ive seen that list before. Look at that list again. All those guys running 9.3 or faster is running a Hi rise intake with solid roller cams. Great for a race car in my opinion. Look at member TXCAMSS running 9.3 with a hydraulic roller in his motor topped with TFS cathedrals with a outdated Fast 92mm intake. Not to mention he is on PUMP GAS at 11.1 compression. He's beating alot of those high compression LS7 combos with solid rollers. That car just hauls the mails!!

SoFla01SSLookinstok

I've met Bill in person & saw his car run at the track. I believe the 10.5 at 132 plus is his best time. Unless I'm mistaken. Being a 6 speed car he doesn't run that every time. When I saw him run it was say 11.0 @ 129-130. Car runs good. As he stated it is not optimized. Yet.

Tuskyz28

10.55 at 133.3 with a 1.59 60', 104.78 in the eighth. The air was very good (low to mid 50s and fairly dry). 427, 12:1 compression, off the shelf TFS 235s, Fast 92 intake with a 3,650 lb. race weight. 3.73 gears.

Notice he not even running a 102mm Fast which could be ported.
Notice the heads are OUT THE BOX.. he could step up to a nitrous exhaust port 245cc head.
Notice his car is 3650 lbs.... waaaay heavier than any C6 corvette .
There's room for improvement for sure. I honestly think if Bill went with a 245cc TFS head warmed over with a fast 102mm intake to match the heads the car will go 10.3s at the bare minimum!!
Bill car is also 6 speed with a 3.73 gear.. I say shove a 4.11 in the rear and let the beast have dinner at the track..

Launch

Yeah that's one combination working very well. And he may have beat several other cars with LS7 heads... but... there are cars with time slips using LS7 heads that haven't been beaten with a cathedral head. Not getting into what intake or pump gas. Hydraulic to solid roller isn't a big deal either, most go solid at that point for reliability and at the same time using a proper rocker gear like T&D.

My T&D rockers to suit my custom LS7 heads are in the mail right now. If i'm slower than a good cathedral with similar mods, i'll let you know. Something tells me I won't be. And this is going on a 346ci. But these are special 240cc intake LS7 heads with 7mm titanium valves suit 3.900 bore. I bought the heads with room to grow onto a 420+ci LSX later on. Also the rocker pedestals on these are milled flat like an ls1 style head is, to take a T&D one piece rocker bar, similar to the Trickflow LS7 setup.

You can't compare one guys car to a bunch of others and say it is one specific part working better than the next when there's so many variables in what makes a car ET. TXCAMSS obviously knew how to get the entire combination working extremely well. Some guys build 20k LSX's and still run knock sensing in the tune and expect it to ET like next guy. I tune that out on every lsx I own.

And that's just one example of one issue, out of hundreds which can make a setup work very well, or not so well. This is the same reasoning which is why there's been a fbody go 9.9 et and several 10.1's 10.2's 10.3's etc et "cam only" 346ci naturally aspirated.. they knew how to get the whole combination working properly. There's a lot more to it than just gutting the car to 3000 lbs and throwing in a 24x/24x cam. There are other guys that can't crack a 10 sec ET cam only using cams just as big as the cam only cars I mentioned above.

I agree a killer cathedral head may be on par to a good LS7 head up to a certain point, but no cathedral head can flow the 390+cfm needed to go mid 8s or quicker with a all out effort naturally aspirated LSX in a 28xx to 31xx lbs fbody which has been done with LS7 heads, and C5R or LSX-DR heads.

That list above hasn't been updated to include the fbodies which went 8.60 et with LS7 heads, down to low 8 second n/a running C5R / DR heads and with the quickest n/a fbody I know of so far being 8.1 ET with Edelbrock canted heads. Of course they are race engines. And of course many race engines still get driven on the road. How much money do you have for maintenance..

Tuskyz28

Launch- Thanks for the response. I feel like if you are running a head over 270 runners you should propel 600 horse at tire easily (6 speed) but MOST fall short.. I'm go bring up a great example on a 427ci 4th gen camaro that was featured in GMHTP.

The cam 702-inch lift on both the intake and exhaust sides. Duration is 260 degrees on the intake side and 266 on the exhaust.
11.2 pump gas compression with a Wilson fabricated intake... kinda a mid rise setup in my eye and some of the best Ls7 heads even built/produced. Wcch 284cc LSW 12 degree head. The car made 552 rwhp/455tq at the rear wheels. That's basically 660 horse at the crank. Roller rockers and all to free up the extra ponies. Thats basically 1.54 hp per cube with a huge cam. Those heads are north of 4200 bucks easily!!

What's wrong with the combo? I'll link you to the car if you want... no problem.

Now let's take a basic 408ci with AFR 245 Mongoose heads out the box with a fast 102mm out the box did by Richard Holderner. The motor made 630hp/580 tq with GM rockers and the cam was a 240/246.... nothing special. That's approximately 1.54 hp per cube on the same exact compression ratio with much less cam and a cheaper top end. If Richard wouldve taken off the heads and intake off the 408 short block and had the top end optimized and used a real roller rocker arm the horsepower wouldve been 1.6 hp per cube easily!! I wish Richard would do that motor again and let Tony Mamo do the heads/intake. I'll also link you to this build here.... no problem.