416 LS3 Stroker with MMS 235 cathedral results!
03-01-2016, 12:32 PM
#24
And as far as I know, Tony only works on AFR heads.
And AFR only does cathedral port heads.....not rectangles, yet.
Sooooooo.......if you want Tony's work, you're gonna get cathedral port heads.
KW
03-01-2016, 09:05 PM
#27
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Thread Starter
It might be more a matter that "they" (car owner) went with Tony, more than anything else.
And as far as I know, Tony only works on AFR heads.
And AFR only does cathedral port heads.....not rectangles, yet.
Sooooooo.......if you want Tony's work, you're gonna get cathedral port heads.
KW
And as far as I know, Tony only works on AFR heads.
And AFR only does cathedral port heads.....not rectangles, yet.
Sooooooo.......if you want Tony's work, you're gonna get cathedral port heads.
KW
LOL......Aaaaaah....just having some fun
Look....I dont want to turn this into a cathedral versus square port deal (in spite of how entertaining that usually is) but the bottom line is a reeeaally good cathedral set-up, optimized such as Jacks combo, truly is a blast to drive and "explosive" is just an understatement.
IF.....and that's a big IF.....if you can achieve the peak power you want with a smaller headed combo, it will always be more fun to drive on the street and in some respects more practical as well.....the part throttle response is improved dramatically and the engine gets up on the torque curve faster....all of which increase the fun to drive factor. Add to this fuel economy is also enhanced (hey.....it doesn't suck right), and its a trifecta for the cathedral argument.
That said, I wanted you guys to know I have been heavy into rect port stuff the last few years mainly helping my 2nd generation CTS-V brethren with ported TFS LS3 castings and making huge power.....helped a handful of N/A folks as well with my ported (TFS) LS3 stuff (NavyBlue who posts alot is one that comes to mind immediately but his combo isn't quite finished yet.....should be very formidable btw).
In the last 6-12 months I have also immersed myself in LS7 head development and Im now selling a ported TFS LS7 casting that flows 412-415 CFM and is only 265 cc's.....its an animal.....smaller than most LS7 heads I have tested and absolutely has the highest flow of any LS7 head I have tested on my equipment including 300 cc stuff with larger 2.250 valves (my new head only has a 2.200 intake valve).
You need a minimum bore of 4.125 to run an LS7 head so clearly that was out of the question here and Jack already had a ported FAST for a cathedral ready to go and knowing his/our target was 550 RWHP, I thought the MMS 235 would be a perfect choice and I stand by that.
What would my ported LS3 head go that Im getting 390+ from.....good question and I should have an answer to that in the next few months cause Im building virtually an identical engine with that head and a ported LS3 FAST. My guess is slightly less bottom and slightly more top but it will be interesting cause I kept the same exhaust lobe and shortened the intake a little to help crutch the bottom end.....the top doesn't need help with its larger huge flowing intake so I felt it didn't require as much intake lobe to make a big number....I was looking for a balanced curve from this new LS3 combo I concocted.....it should be an interesting test.
I would say this.....no matter what the WOT results.....if you value that crisp part throttle, tip in, and that type of thing (all the part throttle nuances of a good combo), the high flow cathedral deal is always going to get the nod but at some point it starts to make so much bottom you realize you cant hook it anyway and the bench racing starts up yet again about which is the best approach.
(The answer.....the "best" approach is based on who's azz is in the seat and how they truly utilize their car....both answers are winners, picking the one slightly more catered to you is the only thing your grappling with).
Alright....Mamo Out.....and guys....I DO BAD AZZ RECT PORT HEADS AS WELL!!
I really need to update my website!
Yeah....there's an idea! (now to find the time)
Mamo OUT
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Tony@MamoMotorsports.com
Anything worth doing is worth doing well. Build it right the first time....its alot cheaper than building it twice!!
www.mamomotorsports.com
Tony@MamoMotorsports.com
Anything worth doing is worth doing well. Build it right the first time....its alot cheaper than building it twice!!
Last edited by Tony @ Mamo Motorsports; 03-01-2016 at 09:24 PM.
03-02-2016, 12:49 PM
#29
Good stuff as always Tony. I used to be all about the MAST small bore LS3 heads, and other smaller bore square port offerings, but as I get older and wiser, I tend to agree that it's damn hard to be a quality cathedral headed setup. There are a lot of very knowledgeable LSx guys that feel the same way you do when it comes to optimizing a cathedral headed setup. If you're building a big cube all out race car, then it's hard to beat the LS7 head platform, but if you're building one of those type of cars, why would you even look at a LS3 head offering.
03-02-2016, 02:03 PM
#30
Good stuff as always Tony. I used to be all about the MAST small bore LS3 heads, and other smaller bore square port offerings, but as I get older and wiser, I tend to agree that it's damn hard to be a quality cathedral headed setup. There are a lot of very knowledgeable LSx guys that feel the same way you do when it comes to optimizing a cathedral headed setup. If you're building a big cube all out race car, then it's hard to beat the LS7 head platform, but if you're building one of those type of cars, why would you even look at a LS3 head offering.
03-02-2016, 05:47 PM
#31
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Thread Starter
Im actually quite curious about the 416 Im building which is a clone of the handful of other 416 cathedral engines I have built with the exception of the heads which will be my latest and greatest LS3 design (utilizing TFS castings).
I do feel the huge gain in CFM will not be fully recognized in the end results.....I mean on paper you would think this motor could make 40+ more HP easily (a 390 CFM head compared to a 345 CFM head), but we will just have to wait and see. Seems most LS3 results come up well short of any significant gains over the better cathedral stuff out there....it will be interesting to see what my combination will do. If it makes even close to that kind of gain and the bottom of the curve isn't brutalized, it may be a good option for some folks Im helping with 416's down the road looking for more aggressive packages with alot of top end power....of course giving up all the part throttle and tip in goodness the much smaller cathedral head offers.
Or.....maybe its only 12 or 15 HP better....not so substantial....and you lose a good bit of bottom.....I would be thinking hard about who I put into that combination but once again for a light car and steep gears and an aggressive driver it still could be the right choice.
Once again its the driver, the car, and the application that really dictate which set-up is best and all of these items are very personalized for each and every individual.
When Im getting ready to get that LS3 416 on the dyno I may post a thread and let you guys guess what it might make....winner gets some money off some Mamo Motorsports products and some MMS free schwag.....LOL
Catch you guys later!
-Tony
PS....No question all the stock displacement builds are better served by really efficient high flowing cathedral heads. The smaller runners are really alot more necessary to give them a more usable broader TQ and power curve.
__________________
www.mamomotorsports.com
Tony@MamoMotorsports.com
Anything worth doing is worth doing well. Build it right the first time....its alot cheaper than building it twice!!
www.mamomotorsports.com
Tony@MamoMotorsports.com
Anything worth doing is worth doing well. Build it right the first time....its alot cheaper than building it twice!!
03-03-2016, 12:57 PM
#33
!!!!!!!!!!NAVYBLUE210 posted on another thread that you did TFS LS3 Heads (I had no idea) so now, my attention is directed back to you!
Yeah.....a web page update is in order, Tony (LOL) !
Oh yeah....I'll be in contact!!!
KW
Last edited by KW Baraka; 03-03-2016 at 01:04 PM.
03-04-2016, 05:04 PM
#34
I would love to see some dyno data of a 416/MMS LS3 heads. Pref. on the same dyno that MMS uses.
03-04-2016, 06:11 PM
#35
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Thread Starter
Should be interesting but don't hold your breath.....Im slammed and its going to be months!
-Tony
__________________
www.mamomotorsports.com
Tony@MamoMotorsports.com
Anything worth doing is worth doing well. Build it right the first time....its alot cheaper than building it twice!!
www.mamomotorsports.com
Tony@MamoMotorsports.com
Anything worth doing is worth doing well. Build it right the first time....its alot cheaper than building it twice!!
03-06-2016, 07:06 AM
#36
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Future plans I do intend to take the car to the track at some point in 2016. Still just street driving the car and getting used to it. Took the car on a 516 mile round trip. With a passenger and a weekend of luggage the car still averaged 21 mpg. That's pretty sweet in my opinion to make the HP this motor makes and still pull off those kind of numbers in regards to fuel mileage. I can guarantee that if you have the opportunity to squeeze the throttle on one of Tony's builds you will grin from ear to ear and have no regrets! I'll keep you posted when the car finally makes it to the track. Thanks again Tony.
03-06-2016, 07:35 AM
#37
Great build! Great results! Power and torque curve are ridiculous as usual. And even the gas mileage is awesome. I don't usually think of gas mileage when I do a build but that's impressive. I don't think I even have a vehicle that gets that good of mileage lol. I'll definitley be watching for track results too. Those are my fav. Enjoy your build!!!
03-08-2016, 03:57 PM
#39
im kind of suprised its not more, I have a simular but little smaller cam and just some ported and milled ls3 heads. made 550/540 hp and tq on 2 different dynos. only made 510 on a mustang dyno however. only advantage I have is 12 to 1 compression