Mark A. Rogalski

iTrader: (1)

You missed it.....it's 303HP with LT's, SLP LS6 intake, Crane stuff.

The 318HP was with open Headers on the above. I can live with only losing less then 5% power (15 Hp) to do my part in keepinng the air cleaner, having no droan, and one bad *** sounding exhaust.

Gman2002Z06

I agree with your environmental concerns...When I installed the LT's on my car, I went with the LT's w/HI-FLOW Cats vs. the non-catted versions...I'm sure I am giving up a few hp also, but keeping the air as clean as possible is worth the loss to me too...

Still, I would active search for another reason for the low dyno numbers, before blaming the rockers...Possibly a bent valve, or low compression in one cylinder...Loosing even a quarter of a single cylinders power would equate to approximately 20 or 25 rwhp...

A quick compression and leak-down test would go a long way in tracking down a possible problem...

Peace...Gman

jaberwaki

2 things...
1. you "noticed" an improvement, or you dynoed and improvment?
2. you went from stock 1.7/1 to 1.7/7 rockers, in your case all that changed was the weight of your valtrain...
in his case he went from 1.7/1 to 1.8/1 changing the geometry of his valvetrain... and IMHO throwing it off...


26 hp from full stock exhast to LT's running open headers is normal...if not a little low... 292 to 303 is the change thru full exhast... and that is definatly low for the swap to LT's...

Mark A. Rogalski

iTrader: (1)

26 hp from full stock exhast to LT's running open headers is normal...if not a little low... 292 to 303 is the change thru full exhast... and that is definatly low for the swap to LT's...[/QUOTE]

292 to 303 is the change thru full exhaust after adding LT's, SLP LS6 intake, K&N filter, and all that Crane stuff.

mrr23

iTrader: (3)

one thing you can't do is stack horsepower. if that was the case, we'd all be at 700 hp by now. this is going be nothing more than speculation because we can't see the before run and compare the entire curve differences. even though peak power and torque might be "low", what were the overall changes made to the curve?

case in point when i put the vinci MAF ends on the wife's 99 formula. it made another 2 PEAK hp. but, after peak power it gained 8 more hp. you have to see the before/after to notice it. here's the graph.

mrr23

iTrader: (3)

now this is what i'm starting to see about your vehicle.

your first graph posted:

98 WS6 (31k miles). Crane 1.8 rockers, pushrods, etc. this week
Z06 cluth assembly and hydraulics this week
LT Jet Hots and a true dual exhaust system.
dyno 3 - 315.7 rwhp and 325.4 rwtq with a big dip in the middle.

now you go back:
Ran through a full tank of Lucas fuel & injector cleaner.
I added a K&N and cleaned the MAF with electronics cleaner
Extreme Motorsports installed the SLP LS6 intake with EGR.
EM readjusted all the Crane rocker arms

EDIT
dyno 6 - 303.0 rwhp and 312.0 rwtq this was TUNED. thus dropping 12.7 rwhp and 13.4 rwtq. done on same day as dyno 3
dyno 8 - 317.9 rwhp and 328.9 rwtq adding the LS6 intake and taking the dual exhaust off and running open headers on same tune.

personally i'd say it was major knock retard. i had it happen to me while dynoing. i went to make the run and the car downshifted on me. took lots of power out of it. here's my dyno showing the loss of power due to the downshifting causing retard

mrr23

iTrader: (3)

mark - i truely want to help you out. so, ive been checking your posts out. did you dyno 292rwhp with the 18 x 10 wheels and tires you put on? those wheels will take up some power as well. what is the exact tire size you ended up with?

https://ls1tech.com/forums/wheels-tires/303470-about-tire-size-18-wheel.html

mrr23

iTrader: (3)

also, when comparing dyno information, sometimes going from one dyno to the next, will cause a difference as seen here. these dynos are 1 hour apart. basically a 20 rwhp and rwtq difference.

Mark A. Rogalski

iTrader: (1)

Took the car back to the shop today. Test drove it with laptop connected and the shop owner in the passenger seat.

It was explained to me that my car (1998) had 28 degree timing tables that were stock. (He might have said 30 cus I heard both those numbers in the same sentence).

After the Crane components were installed and during the Dyno tuned he explained they changed the timing tables to 19 degrees to try to reduce the knock that was showing up. In addtion to that it was also explained that helps with the fact we can only get 91 Octane in AZ.

We drove the car and it showed knock across the board under hard acceleration. You could hear nothing inside the car as far as knock. It also showed it was reducing the timing another 4 degrees down to 15 or so to compensate for the knock that was showing up.

Tuesday it goes in to replace the knock sensors and readjust the timing tables.

And this would explain the reason there is not higher HP numbers and it drives like a dog now? No timing advance to speak of right?

Patrick G

iTrader: (14)

Have you considered that you're getting "false" knock from the rockers? Add some race gas. If the knock goes away, you're octane limited. If the knock stays after you've added the race gas, look for false knock. 15 degrees is ridiculous!

jaberwaki

15*
!!!!!!!

:puke:

yes this would definatly explane your low power numbers....
again i will ask...
you only started getting knock AFTER you installed the valvetrain stuff? hmmmmmm....

mrr23

iTrader: (3)

boy, you guys just won't give up on the rockers will you? just to enlighten you guys some more. he's been emailing me about it. the knock started BEFORE the addition of the rockers. the knock problem started about two weeks after he took it to a dealer for an EGR recall. patrick g does make a good point. get some race gas and see what happens. make sure it's unleaded race gas. the only thing that'll prove it whether or not it's false knock. won't determine if it's the rockers, the knock sensors, or something banging on the car sending vibrations back through the motor and setting the kncok sensors off.

besides, if the rockers are causing all this knock, why am i not getting any knock? i'm on stock tuning. so, HHHMMMMMM back at you.

i go back to what jimyblue just told him in another thread and what i told him in an email. the wonderful 1998 knock sensor issues some of us know about. let's see what happens when he swaps the knock sensors out.

Mark A. Rogalski

iTrader: (1)

The shop replaced the knock sensors with the upgraded version today. The gas is fine. Ran 2 tanks of RedLine fuel cleaner before today and was on its third during the Dyno today.
Re-Dyno'd and.... the problem remains the same. Knock and retard!

On the 27th I will get to the bottom of this knock issue. The shop will be replacing all those new Crane Components (rockers, pushrods, springs) systematically by replacing the rockers first with Harlan Sharps redone OEM's then Dyno. If this is not it then back to OEM pushrods, and use LS6 springs. If this still does not resolve the issue then it more then likely is a lower end problem not audible to the ear.

If this does resolve it then it will be tore down to fit new lifters and a larger cam to get the power I have been spending good money to get.

I wanted more power and eventually I will get it. Damn straight!

Gman2002Z06

jaberwaki...In response to your statements...

You wanted to know:

"2 things...
1. you "noticed" an improvement, or you dynoed and improvment?
2. you went from stock 1.7/1 to 1.7/7 rockers, in your case all that changed was the weight of your valtrain...
in his case he went from 1.7/1 to 1.8/1 changing the geometry of his valvetrain... and IMHO throwing it off..."

1. YES, I "noticed" an improvement...NOT Dyno'd an improvement...But...I have done extensive amounts of logging with my HP-Tuners and use my G-Tech Timer ALOT...

After the install of the rockers, which I did to eliminate the TICK-TICK-TICK sound that the valvetrain made after the cam was installed, my measured acceleration times were averaging approx. 2 tenths of a second faster from 10 mph to 100 mph...

That is telling me, that the change from the stock 1.70 rockers to the 1.79 accelerated lift Roller Rockers were doing there job...Now, whether it was actual airflow increases in hp or just reduced friction from the roller tip...Probably a combination of the two, that showed ACTUAL, MEASURED REAL WORLD DRIVING PERFORMANCE INCREASE...

As for the geometry being off...The rocker arm pushrod cup is moved such a short distance relative to the length of the pushrod, that the actual angular differential between a stock rocker and the 1.89's will not cause any geometry problems...

I ran 1.85 rockers on my last LS1 powered vette for 20,000 miles, with a 6800 rpm rev limit and never had any issues with the valvetrain or knock...

Also, I get no signs of knock with the Crane rockers either...If anything there should be less chance for false knock caused by the rockers because they are much quiter than the stock valvetrain components...

Again, as was stated earlier...His knock issues started before the rockers...My bet is, after they remove the rockers...He will still have the same issues...

Peace...Gman

mrr23

iTrader: (3)

well, keep us updated.

Joe Vinci

iTrader: (3)

Thanks to all who have purchased the rocker arms and given their testamonials. These people know what a great modification and addition this package is to their vehicles.
As far as the rockers causing false knock I have never seen it in our final product. Why? Because in 1997 when the ls1 first came out, we began the process of developing the 1.8 ratio rocker arms with Crane Cams. Two items were paramount before we would accept the rocker arms: geometric accuracy and noiseless operation. We had endless hours of testing on the dyno, track and street (two years actually). The great engineering team at Crane Cams worked intensely with us making change after change after change until the final product gained the approval of everyone involved. The final result is a rocker arm package that averages 18-23 horsepower, eliminates virtually all valvetrain noise and reduces valvetrain stress and wear. It is of the utmost importance that these rocker arms be adjusted to VHP specs, which places the pushrod at the proper depth in the lifter. Forget all you thought you knew about rocker arm/lifter adjustment in the past. This is not a small block chevy. During our test procedures we placed the pushrod at literally dozens of different depths in the lifter. We also altered the length of the pushrods several times moving the rocker arms up and down on the studs, thereby changing the geometric efficiency of the rockers. Our findings, while a bit perplexing prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the quietest operation and most horsepower produced occur when the pushrod is .090-.120 in the lifter. We shortened our pushrod by .150 to ensure the geometric accuracy of the rocker and to compliment the advanced design of the quick lift rocker body. We also use a one piece .080 wall chromemoly pushrod to virtually eliminate pushrod flex. Because the adjustment is so critical our staff is available M-F 8:00am-5:00 to answer any questions and to guide you through the process to ensure the best possible results.
Since 1999 we have sold thousands of these rocker arms. But due to the overwhelming success of our current LS1Tech sale we are having to work extended hours to just to package and ship our valvetrain products. What a terrible problem to have. To all who have purchased these products, thank you. To those looking to purchase these products I have extended the sale to 6/10/05.
Call us with any rocker arm or valvetrain questions you might have. Joe.

Mark A. Rogalski

iTrader: (1)

Joe,

My car goes back in the shop on the 27th of June. I'll pay for your ticket, you fly out here to Phoenix, and you can get it right for me in conjunction with Extreme Motorsports. Fair enough?

obZidian

iTrader: (2)

hey, did you ever fix that dip? I just dyno'd and im having a similar issue....

actually, exactly at 5200 to 5800...then goes back up!!!

I have a set of 1-7 yella terra, gm lifters, chromoly pusrods, comp dual springs, retainers, keepers, etc.

i'll try to get a dyno sheet scanned to show my results...

obZidian

iTrader: (2)

any news?

jaberwaki

bigity bump......

when ever you get one, update please....