ARE 427 493 rwhp 466 rwtq
10-04-2005, 06:05 AM
#21
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I'm going to pull the rockers off the stock engine and install them on the 427 this week.It's the easiest and cheapest thing to do at this point.I'm not buying new headers.
10-04-2005, 10:31 AM
#23
Originally Posted by Roofer Dave
I'm going to pull the rockers off the stock engine and install them on the 427 this week.It's the easiest and cheapest thing to do at this point.I'm not buying new headers.
Tony M.
10-04-2005, 03:47 PM
#24
Yep I tuned it. Very low for what it is "suppose' to be.
A/F is right around 12.7-12.9 across the whole RPM range. Timing was set to 24 then I got it up to 26 and didn't notice much of a change in power.
Maybe you guys are right, the 1.8 rockers might be hurting him. 1 7/8 headers would help too but he already spent a lot of $$$$ on his 1 3/4 LTs.
I tuned another 427 LS2 that was built by MTI with a smaller cam (238 242 116 lsa) stock Z06 catback and he made 520 RWHP & 505 RWTQ.
A/F is right around 12.7-12.9 across the whole RPM range. Timing was set to 24 then I got it up to 26 and didn't notice much of a change in power.
Maybe you guys are right, the 1.8 rockers might be hurting him. 1 7/8 headers would help too but he already spent a lot of $$$$ on his 1 3/4 LTs.
I tuned another 427 LS2 that was built by MTI with a smaller cam (238 242 116 lsa) stock Z06 catback and he made 520 RWHP & 505 RWTQ.
10-04-2005, 05:43 PM
#27
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Originally Posted by JS
What headers were on that MTI engine...1 3/4 is s mall for a big bore,I understand he spent $$$ on the LG's so he's stuck with them.Maybe a regrind on the cam might help too...Get those stock rockers on the car just to see what happens...
10-04-2005, 05:58 PM
#28
Guys...
It's NOT the headers...Lou @ LG (just to name one) has put out more than a couple of 427's with 11 to 1 CR, AFR 225's out of the box, a FAST 90, and what he calls his "gentleman's cam" (a somewhat conservative Hyd. roller) and usually puts up 550/550 with the "small" 1.75 long tubes....surely a 1.875 might have gotten him 565 on the HP side, but 550 "squared" makes for a hell of a nice driver. For that matter how many 402/408 combo's have we all seen with better final numbers in both TQ and HP....
An engine with too small a header usually puts up a big TQ number and a so-so power figure....obviously that is not the case here, not to mention other 427's with the exact same exhaust system and similar overall configurations have made alot more TQ and HP.
Just my .02
Tony M.
PS....And I am also looking foward to the results from the rocker swap....finding more HP seems logical, I'm curious if there is a bump in the TQ output as well.
It's NOT the headers...Lou @ LG (just to name one) has put out more than a couple of 427's with 11 to 1 CR, AFR 225's out of the box, a FAST 90, and what he calls his "gentleman's cam" (a somewhat conservative Hyd. roller) and usually puts up 550/550 with the "small" 1.75 long tubes....surely a 1.875 might have gotten him 565 on the HP side, but 550 "squared" makes for a hell of a nice driver. For that matter how many 402/408 combo's have we all seen with better final numbers in both TQ and HP....
An engine with too small a header usually puts up a big TQ number and a so-so power figure....obviously that is not the case here, not to mention other 427's with the exact same exhaust system and similar overall configurations have made alot more TQ and HP.
Just my .02
Tony M.
PS....And I am also looking foward to the results from the rocker swap....finding more HP seems logical, I'm curious if there is a bump in the TQ output as well.
Last edited by Tony Mamo @ AFR; 10-04-2005 at 06:18 PM.
10-04-2005, 07:07 PM
#29
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tune I have the mti 408 stroker just tuned by bill
( buy the way he is a great tuner in columbus area!!!!!!) and my car put down 540rwhp threw mosier 12 bolt, 4.10's, and 18 inch rims.
I would think u would have to have more hp than me!!!!!
Good luck with everything!
( buy the way he is a great tuner in columbus area!!!!!!) and my car put down 540rwhp threw mosier 12 bolt, 4.10's, and 18 inch rims.
I would think u would have to have more hp than me!!!!!
Good luck with everything!
10-05-2005, 12:35 AM
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Most people honestly do use 1 7/8th headers on the big cube even 408 motors, Sure LG uses the 1 3/4 but that is what is advertised to make money,also he is probably using them cause he does not have 1 7/8 ths to use cause he does not produce them. Lets not forget that shop cars are usually special. This is not meant as flame bate, just general truth.
But beyond this I have seen some local guys pick up alot of power by bypassing the z06 exhaust, If memory serves correct by going from z06 to dual cutouts gained 30 hp, Ill confirm this and repost.
Maybe at least try some cutouts, cant go wrong there at 30 bucks a pop. I am also interested to see what happens regarding the rocker arms/preload as well. Good luck and remember at least you don't have an APE motor like I do lol
. How good are the heads? Got any flow numbers/volume sizes?
But beyond this I have seen some local guys pick up alot of power by bypassing the z06 exhaust, If memory serves correct by going from z06 to dual cutouts gained 30 hp, Ill confirm this and repost.
Maybe at least try some cutouts, cant go wrong there at 30 bucks a pop. I am also interested to see what happens regarding the rocker arms/preload as well. Good luck and remember at least you don't have an APE motor like I do lol
. How good are the heads? Got any flow numbers/volume sizes?
10-05-2005, 06:40 AM
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I agree with everyone on the 1 7/8 LT making more power,and I would buy a set today if I didn't already have a $1200.00 set of LGM's that aren't a year old.
Last edited by 10.5 Dave; 10-06-2005 at 06:02 AM.
10-06-2005, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by VINCE
HOw does the car feel? Have you taken her to the track? I run stock rockers.
Vince how much power do you gain over the z06 exhaust when opening up the cutouts?
10-06-2005, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by VINCE
HOw does the car feel? Have you taken her to the track? I run stock rockers.
I've gotten a little frustrated with the car and will probably just swap rockers and pushrods and put it back on the dyno.That is the cheapest option and if I see 520-530 rear wheel with the changes I will leave it alone.
Eventually I want to hit 750/750 on a 200 shot.
10-07-2005, 09:49 AM
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Wait...you had ARE build you a motor? What's up with that?
After the rocker swap, I'd definately look at the heads. You can get a set of LS7 heads and the intake for $1500. Sell your FAST 90 and 1.8 rockers, cut your losses on your heads and put all the hardware on the LS7's with a new set of valves. You'll pick up a TON.
After the rocker swap, I'd definately look at the heads. You can get a set of LS7 heads and the intake for $1500. Sell your FAST 90 and 1.8 rockers, cut your losses on your heads and put all the hardware on the LS7's with a new set of valves. You'll pick up a TON.
10-07-2005, 10:45 AM
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Definitely swap out the rockers. I know a guy in your situation that picked up 30RWHP past 6000rpm with the stockers versus those 1.8's.
The headers will help but that is a lot of coin. The exhaust (Z06 mufflers) are costing you a bit of power. You could do the cutout mod to each muffler and bypass them.
I think your numbers are quite good considering the valvefloat.
The headers will help but that is a lot of coin. The exhaust (Z06 mufflers) are costing you a bit of power. You could do the cutout mod to each muffler and bypass them.
I think your numbers are quite good considering the valvefloat.
10-09-2005, 09:07 PM
#39
Originally Posted by JakeFusion
Doubtful. LG made 565rwhp with a 427 with their headers. I've seen MTI guys do the LSX90 and Kooks 1-7/8" and pick up 30rwhp on those 427s. But that was from TPIS or FLP headers, and most of that was probably the LSX90.
It's probably worth 5HP maybe 10HP, but the area under the curve would be hurt. 32" primaries with a high flow merge collector are better suited than 24" primaries on a 1-7/8" with standard collectors. How?
For a 427 that peaks at 6400 or so, 34" primaries at 2" would be ideal. But, no one makes anything like this. Using the formulas from A. Graham Bell’s Performance Tuning in Theory and Practice, we can calculate that if you have a 32" primary, you would now need a 2.1" diameter, so 2.10"-1.75" = .35" difference. If the header has 24" primaries, it comes out to requiring a 2.72" diameter, and thus 2.720"-1.875" = .845".
Personally, I'd use the one that is closer to 0, which is the LG header. If LG would come out with a 1-7/8" that is 32", it would be the best hands down.
It's probably worth 5HP maybe 10HP, but the area under the curve would be hurt. 32" primaries with a high flow merge collector are better suited than 24" primaries on a 1-7/8" with standard collectors. How?
For a 427 that peaks at 6400 or so, 34" primaries at 2" would be ideal. But, no one makes anything like this. Using the formulas from A. Graham Bell’s Performance Tuning in Theory and Practice, we can calculate that if you have a 32" primary, you would now need a 2.1" diameter, so 2.10"-1.75" = .35" difference. If the header has 24" primaries, it comes out to requiring a 2.72" diameter, and thus 2.720"-1.875" = .845".
Personally, I'd use the one that is closer to 0, which is the LG header. If LG would come out with a 1-7/8" that is 32", it would be the best hands down.
Plug this into your formula, an AFR headed combo with 88cc exhaust ports (stock) made more power with LG headers then Kooks. The exact same combo with TEA LS6 heads that had 78cc exhaust ports made more power with Kooks then with the LG. I know what is going on with this, do you?
10-10-2005, 12:03 AM
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Dave, I have almost the exact same story.
My ARE 422 has been weak from day one. It did 475/467 with 1 3/4 TPIS and LS6 manifold, 248/248 110+2 @ .621/.621, and 1.8 YT's. It also had a huge dip after 6300.
Early this spring, I lost cylinder number 3. Bent exhaust valve. Pulled heads, and they looked horrible. The valve tips were all worn very odd. Upon recieving the heads back, ARE said there were 5 bent valves. The guides were shot. At first, some of the employees were very accusatory. That did not help my already iffy relationship with them. I had a spirited 4th gear run on the interstate and that was that. I most certainly did not miss a gear, or do anything to bend a valve. After talking with Nick, he said the seats were beat to hell and he could tell they'd been floating from looking at them. All new hardware was put on the heads, and they were sent back to me. Now, months later, it is clear to me that it was valve float.
I reassembled/retuned/redyno'ed after adding 1 7/8 kooks and made 484/459. Again, a major dip after 6300. A net gain of 8 rwhp and a loss of 8 rwtq.
I put a FAST intake/Nick Williams 90 mm TB on, Stock TI exhaust (had GHL's), 10w40 redline (had 20/50 castrol dino oil), and stock rockers. I redynoed and made 484/459. But, the dip is gone. I have dyno sheets here http://12.203.3.3:6580/dyno.jpg. The red line is the most recent dyno, the blue line was from speed inc (paragraph above).
I have 2.055/1.57 Stage II LS6 heads with 232 cc runners, and 62.5 cc chambers.
I, like you, have been disappointed with my 422 from day one. 459 tq is not so hot, neither is 484 rwhp. I was supposed to have traded in my current heads (they were on my 346) and gotten new, more modern 6.0's set up for a 422. That did not happen. More than anything, I'm disappointed at the way things have gone in regards to customer service. Mistakes happen, but its how you react to mistakes that makes good customer service. I'm sure everyone reading this can all imagine the money required to have a forged/sleeved motor built/installed. I don't think its asking too much to get what you paid for. I've given ARE so many chances to make things right. The old ARE, the new ARE, etc. I've talked til I'm blue in the face to several employees about my plight, including Nick. I offered to work with them, they always say sure, they will get me prices, give me dibs on All-Pro's etc, but in the end months go by and I NEVER get a call back from them. I've given up. There are too many other companies making great power, and who will actually work to earn your money. I've kept my mouth shut for a year, trying to remain professional and give them a chance (2 chances, 3 chances counting) to make things right.
My ARE 422 has been weak from day one. It did 475/467 with 1 3/4 TPIS and LS6 manifold, 248/248 110+2 @ .621/.621, and 1.8 YT's. It also had a huge dip after 6300.
Early this spring, I lost cylinder number 3. Bent exhaust valve. Pulled heads, and they looked horrible. The valve tips were all worn very odd. Upon recieving the heads back, ARE said there were 5 bent valves. The guides were shot. At first, some of the employees were very accusatory. That did not help my already iffy relationship with them. I had a spirited 4th gear run on the interstate and that was that. I most certainly did not miss a gear, or do anything to bend a valve. After talking with Nick, he said the seats were beat to hell and he could tell they'd been floating from looking at them. All new hardware was put on the heads, and they were sent back to me. Now, months later, it is clear to me that it was valve float.
I reassembled/retuned/redyno'ed after adding 1 7/8 kooks and made 484/459. Again, a major dip after 6300. A net gain of 8 rwhp and a loss of 8 rwtq.
I put a FAST intake/Nick Williams 90 mm TB on, Stock TI exhaust (had GHL's), 10w40 redline (had 20/50 castrol dino oil), and stock rockers. I redynoed and made 484/459. But, the dip is gone. I have dyno sheets here http://12.203.3.3:6580/dyno.jpg. The red line is the most recent dyno, the blue line was from speed inc (paragraph above).
I have 2.055/1.57 Stage II LS6 heads with 232 cc runners, and 62.5 cc chambers.
I, like you, have been disappointed with my 422 from day one. 459 tq is not so hot, neither is 484 rwhp. I was supposed to have traded in my current heads (they were on my 346) and gotten new, more modern 6.0's set up for a 422. That did not happen. More than anything, I'm disappointed at the way things have gone in regards to customer service. Mistakes happen, but its how you react to mistakes that makes good customer service. I'm sure everyone reading this can all imagine the money required to have a forged/sleeved motor built/installed. I don't think its asking too much to get what you paid for. I've given ARE so many chances to make things right. The old ARE, the new ARE, etc. I've talked til I'm blue in the face to several employees about my plight, including Nick. I offered to work with them, they always say sure, they will get me prices, give me dibs on All-Pro's etc, but in the end months go by and I NEVER get a call back from them. I've given up. There are too many other companies making great power, and who will actually work to earn your money. I've kept my mouth shut for a year, trying to remain professional and give them a chance (2 chances, 3 chances counting) to make things right.