Dissapointed in 408ci results!!!430rwhp WTF?
02-13-2006, 09:04 AM
#41
Thats very good mph hitting the rev linter on the 2-3 shift. Times look very good at full weight. All ya need is some 3.73`s a good tranny and some 1.4 60 fts and you will be well into the 10`s. Add some weight lose and you will be flying~!!
Good luck man
Good luck man
02-13-2006, 09:20 AM
#42
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Great track numbers!
If you were to upgrade heads i'd look at the ET's, maybe something in the 240cc range. I'd also look at having your 90 ported to match the heads when you upgrade. Some Kooks or QTP 1 7/8's would help too (assuming you currently have 1 3/4's)
If you were to upgrade heads i'd look at the ET's, maybe something in the 240cc range. I'd also look at having your 90 ported to match the heads when you upgrade. Some Kooks or QTP 1 7/8's would help too (assuming you currently have 1 3/4's)
02-13-2006, 09:32 AM
#43
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Not to jack here, but I just emailed QTP on some 1 7/8 headers and there not gearing up to make them since there has been low demand so that stinks!!
I was interested cause they dropped the prices big time on everything else. I know they used to be over 1K for headers now there down below 800$. I don't think I like the kookys after dealing with them on a friends car and their bad bad customer service.
I was interested cause they dropped the prices big time on everything else. I know they used to be over 1K for headers now there down below 800$. I don't think I like the kookys after dealing with them on a friends car and their bad bad customer service.
02-13-2006, 09:35 AM
#44
Originally Posted by speedo
Not to jack here, but I just emailed QTP on some 1 7/8 headers and there not gearing up to make them since there has been low demand so that stinks!!
I was interested cause they dropped the prices big time on everything else. I know they used to be over 1K for headers now there down below 800$. I don't think I like the kookys after dealing with them on a friends car and their bad bad customer service.
I was interested cause they dropped the prices big time on everything else. I know they used to be over 1K for headers now there down below 800$. I don't think I like the kookys after dealing with them on a friends car and their bad bad customer service.
Thats weak I was looking to pick up a set
02-13-2006, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by offaxis
Thats weak I was looking to pick up a set
We have not started on the 1 7/8 hvmc headers. There has not been much of a
interest in them. So we do not know if we are going to gear up for the 1 7/8
Sales Team
www.QuickTimePerformance.com
201-444-0998
02-13-2006, 09:45 AM
#46
Originally Posted by BlueSix
I love it when people think every 408 will dyno 500+ rwhp. Hmmm, unlocked A4 on a mustang. What were you expecting?
<< 408ci and acheived 499.4rwhp & 468rwtrq on a mustang dyno. That was with a unfinished tune. As well the Eddi current system was enabled when I ran. I only did one run as well. "I love it when ppl talk out there ***".
02-13-2006, 10:00 AM
#49
Originally Posted by Snapps
<< 408ci and acheived 499.4rwhp & 468rwtrq on a mustang dyno. That was with a unfinished tune. As well the Eddi current system was enabled when I ran. I only did one run as well. "I love it when ppl talk out there ***".
Snapps
Do you have a m6 car? I hope thats not all you made if your an m6. With a A4 its impressive with a m6 not so much
Last edited by offaxis; 02-13-2006 at 01:27 PM.
02-13-2006, 10:17 AM
#50
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I know the afr 205s are pretty small,I plan to upgrade to 1 7/8 headers or 1 3/4 to 1 7/8,install the pulley and low temp thermostat.What .would be the percentage lost between the 2 dynos?The heads will have to wait unless I sell the 205s
02-13-2006, 11:02 AM
#51
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Originally Posted by JMBLOWNWS6
HPE did my buddies tune on his 402 and we redid it with the wideband and picked up almost 55 RWHP. Since I factored in the difference from the dynojet to the mustang dyno. So I figured we gained almost 75 to 80 on the dynojet.
Your buddies 402? Next time you make up a story you should try to come up with something the person doing the aclaimed tuning can't call BS on. Considering I can count the number of 402's I've tuned on less than 1 finger! And it's likely your "buddies 402" was dyno'd with a wideband even if his car exists, because I only recently stopped using a wideband. I got tired of replacing 100 dollar sensors when I've got 5 other ways of telling me where I'm at with the a/f.
1. You can SEE it. Smoke out the tailpipes indicates detonation.
2. You can READ it. Spots on the dyno graph indicate detonation.
3. You can SMELL it. Detonation has a very obvious odor to it.
4. You can monitor the o2's.
5. You can monitor knock retard.
Do I really need 1 more way of knowing if I'm in the ball park with the a/f or not? On some cars a wideband is nice because it helps you get it closer, faster. But a wideband is not going to tell you where ultimate power is. "Oh good, I have achieved 13:1 a/f ratio, my tune is complete". Is everybody under the impression that a certain a/f ratio yields ultimate power? Do you think somebody just came around one day and said, "N/A LS1's need 12.8-13.0 a/f under wot, and power adder cars need 11.5:1". What about the Honda VTEC that runs 14.7:1 under wot? Think somebody just came up with that number as well, or is it because maybe that's what the motor wants? How'd they know that's what the motor wants?
The a/f ratio doesn't mean anything to me. It's all about giving a motor the a/f it wants to make ultimate power with. The wideband is just for amateur tuners. Plain and simple. I've tuned more of these cars than ANYBODY reading this post right now, so if you want to argue with me, find a tree to bark at, because I really don't care WHAT you think about it.
Chuck
02-13-2006, 11:12 AM
#52
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Originally Posted by Chuck@HPE
Your buddies 402? Next time you make up a story you should try to come up with something the person doing the aclaimed tuning can't call BS on. Considering I can count the number of 402's I've tuned on less than 1 finger! And it's likely your "buddies 402" was dyno'd with a wideband even if his car exists, because I only recently stopped using a wideband. I got tired of replacing 100 dollar sensors when I've got 5 other ways of telling me where I'm at with the a/f.
1. You can SEE it. Smoke out the tailpipes indicates detonation.
2. You can READ it. Spots on the dyno graph indicate detonation.
3. You can SMELL it. Detonation has a very obvious odor to it.
4. You can monitor the o2's.
5. You can monitor knock retard.
Do I really need 1 more way of knowing if I'm in the ball park with the a/f or not? On some cars a wideband is nice because it helps you get it closer, faster. But a wideband is not going to tell you where ultimate power is. "Oh good, I have achieved 13:1 a/f ratio, my tune is complete". Is everybody under the impression that a certain a/f ratio yields ultimate power? Do you think somebody just came around one day and said, "N/A LS1's need 12.8-13.0 a/f under wot, and power adder cars need 11.5:1". What about the Honda VTEC that runs 14.7:1 under wot? Think somebody just came up with that number as well, or is it because maybe that's what the motor wants? How'd they know that's what the motor wants?
The a/f ratio doesn't mean anything to me. It's all about giving a motor the a/f it wants to make ultimate power with. The wideband is just for amateur tuners. Plain and simple. I've tuned more of these cars than ANYBODY reading this post right now, so if you want to argue with me, find a tree to bark at, because I really don't care WHAT you think about it.
Chuck
1. You can SEE it. Smoke out the tailpipes indicates detonation.
2. You can READ it. Spots on the dyno graph indicate detonation.
3. You can SMELL it. Detonation has a very obvious odor to it.
4. You can monitor the o2's.
5. You can monitor knock retard.
Do I really need 1 more way of knowing if I'm in the ball park with the a/f or not? On some cars a wideband is nice because it helps you get it closer, faster. But a wideband is not going to tell you where ultimate power is. "Oh good, I have achieved 13:1 a/f ratio, my tune is complete". Is everybody under the impression that a certain a/f ratio yields ultimate power? Do you think somebody just came around one day and said, "N/A LS1's need 12.8-13.0 a/f under wot, and power adder cars need 11.5:1". What about the Honda VTEC that runs 14.7:1 under wot? Think somebody just came up with that number as well, or is it because maybe that's what the motor wants? How'd they know that's what the motor wants?
The a/f ratio doesn't mean anything to me. It's all about giving a motor the a/f it wants to make ultimate power with. The wideband is just for amateur tuners. Plain and simple. I've tuned more of these cars than ANYBODY reading this post right now, so if you want to argue with me, find a tree to bark at, because I really don't care WHAT you think about it.
Chuck
And FYI my buddie Shawn has tuned more LS1's than you have. He was tuning before HPE existed. I have the dam Bin files to compare. I know what you did and what we fixed. Also you cant even figure out a crank sensor is bad when the dam code was right there in front of your face. Nothing like treating my buddie like **** and not even helping him unload the car after we reconmend him to go to you from San Antonio. And hes not the only one we sent to you. 
Last edited by JMBLOWNWS6; 02-13-2006 at 11:21 AM.
02-13-2006, 11:18 AM
#53
This thread is pretty funny...
First off there is nothing wrong with the heads and this combo is putting down big #'s....while perhaps not ideal for a 408 looking for ALL the money in the HP department, the 205's would be a great choice for someone looking for alot of drivability, "snap" in the throttle and excellent low speed TQ, and the capacity to still make solid peak numbers.
The trap speed that combination just layed down is indicative of just under 600 flywheel HP, making assumptions of average air and a 3700 lb. raceweight (??). Assuming 125 MPH in the near future with his transmission issues sorted out that would indicate over 600 HP at the flywheel, once again with the assumptions made above.
The dyno experience in question had every strike against it (assuming the intent was to actually leave with big bragging rights....)
It was thru an A4 unlocked
There was no wideband tuning and only two full power runs (not nearly enough to find the most efficient fueling and timing curves).
It was conducted on a Mustang dyno (a no-brainer for worse #'s than a Dynojet almost every time and sometimes significantly worse).
Lets look at this another way....what would we HOPE this combination put down on a DynoJet with ample tuning time and assuming a 10 RWHP loss from not running the larger 225 (which has been a stellar performer on almost every 402/408 combo we have seen)??
My "airdyno" says somewhere in the high 400 to very low 500 range....I mean a good running M6 version of the same would be say 525 RWHP...maybe even a little less accounting for the smaller head. Knock off a chunk for the A4, a chunk for the convertor not being locked, and a chunk for not enough tuning time AND a Mustang dyno.
Get that car dialed in, lock the converter, and get her on a DynoJet....you might be very surprised by the outcome (which will back up the results the car has already layed down at the track and its obvious there is even more there).
Moral of the story....the 205's are an effective head even on a larger displacement combination (especially for an individual wanting to enhance the "street" portion of his powerband), and be realistic about all the parameters and factors that will weigh heavily on the results of some time spent on the dyno (chassis or flywheel)....makes for alot less disappointment that way.
That combination is already stout and whats scary is there is obviously even more to be found....Congrats and keep us posted on future dyno outings and track results.
Regards,
Tony
First off there is nothing wrong with the heads and this combo is putting down big #'s....while perhaps not ideal for a 408 looking for ALL the money in the HP department, the 205's would be a great choice for someone looking for alot of drivability, "snap" in the throttle and excellent low speed TQ, and the capacity to still make solid peak numbers.
The trap speed that combination just layed down is indicative of just under 600 flywheel HP, making assumptions of average air and a 3700 lb. raceweight (??). Assuming 125 MPH in the near future with his transmission issues sorted out that would indicate over 600 HP at the flywheel, once again with the assumptions made above.
The dyno experience in question had every strike against it (assuming the intent was to actually leave with big bragging rights....)
It was thru an A4 unlocked
There was no wideband tuning and only two full power runs (not nearly enough to find the most efficient fueling and timing curves).
It was conducted on a Mustang dyno (a no-brainer for worse #'s than a Dynojet almost every time and sometimes significantly worse).
Lets look at this another way....what would we HOPE this combination put down on a DynoJet with ample tuning time and assuming a 10 RWHP loss from not running the larger 225 (which has been a stellar performer on almost every 402/408 combo we have seen)??
My "airdyno" says somewhere in the high 400 to very low 500 range....I mean a good running M6 version of the same would be say 525 RWHP...maybe even a little less accounting for the smaller head. Knock off a chunk for the A4, a chunk for the convertor not being locked, and a chunk for not enough tuning time AND a Mustang dyno.
Get that car dialed in, lock the converter, and get her on a DynoJet....you might be very surprised by the outcome (which will back up the results the car has already layed down at the track and its obvious there is even more there).
Moral of the story....the 205's are an effective head even on a larger displacement combination (especially for an individual wanting to enhance the "street" portion of his powerband), and be realistic about all the parameters and factors that will weigh heavily on the results of some time spent on the dyno (chassis or flywheel)....makes for alot less disappointment that way.
That combination is already stout and whats scary is there is obviously even more to be found....Congrats and keep us posted on future dyno outings and track results.
Regards,
Tony
Last edited by Tony Mamo @ AFR; 02-13-2006 at 11:43 AM.
02-13-2006, 11:27 AM
#54
I agree with Tony on the funny part
There is way to many variations here. The dyno #'s are messed with by the fact the converter wasn't locked. We've had a car run 350rwhp unlocked ,460 locked before.Kinda funny how that unlocked 350hp ran 10.8's at 123mph at 3650lbs though
See where we are coming from
Cars can easilly be tuned without a wideband and most of our NA race cars are tuned that way.Some like 12-1 A/F and some like 14-1 A/F.
The car in question ran a decent time so far with a far from optimal setup.
Mustang Dyno's can vary alot,they are made for tuning,not HP wars
There is way to many variations here. The dyno #'s are messed with by the fact the converter wasn't locked. We've had a car run 350rwhp unlocked ,460 locked before.Kinda funny how that unlocked 350hp ran 10.8's at 123mph at 3650lbs though
See where we are coming from Cars can easilly be tuned without a wideband and most of our NA race cars are tuned that way.Some like 12-1 A/F and some like 14-1 A/F.
The car in question ran a decent time so far with a far from optimal setup.
Mustang Dyno's can vary alot,they are made for tuning,not HP wars
02-13-2006, 11:30 AM
#55
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All I was trying to point out to the guy that there is a big difference in power output from a mustang dyno to a dyno jet. And I am telling the truth that we did pick up alot more horsepower. Not like I am some pro tuner just sharing my .02
02-13-2006, 11:40 AM
#56
Originally Posted by JMBLOWNWS6
All I was trying to point out to the guy that there is a big difference in power output from a mustang dyno to a dyno jet. And I am telling the truth that we did pick up alot more horsepower. Not like I am some pro tuner just sharing my .02
02-13-2006, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Tony Mamo @ AFR
There was no wideband tuning and only two full power runs (not nearly enough to find the most efficient fueling and timing curves).
02-13-2006, 11:49 AM
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I think that this thread is going more than it should be with some BS replies(not all of them for sure), while the man is pissed and seeking help , in my personal opnion I think he is putting some good no# with lots of weak points :-
1- unlocked
2- never compare m6 to a4 for u who dont know.
3-mustang dyno
4-probably need more tuning .
those r major problems .
there r other minor facts that he is still running the AFR205 ( which isn`t a problem) where he can have more power with other heads , but as tony mamo mentioned he is looking for more drivebility and TQ , also still running a 1 3/4 Lt`s and no fast combo or a wilson`s sheetmetal intake manifold .
I would say congrats for the numbers so far and pretty sure that there is a lot more coming up from your 408 .
Good luck .
1- unlocked
2- never compare m6 to a4 for u who dont know.
3-mustang dyno
4-probably need more tuning .
those r major problems .
there r other minor facts that he is still running the AFR205 ( which isn`t a problem) where he can have more power with other heads , but as tony mamo mentioned he is looking for more drivebility and TQ , also still running a 1 3/4 Lt`s and no fast combo or a wilson`s sheetmetal intake manifold .
I would say congrats for the numbers so far and pretty sure that there is a lot more coming up from your 408 .
Good luck .
02-13-2006, 11:54 AM
#59
I'd have to say I agree with Chuck regarding the area of tuning. I've done, as well as others, some great tuning WAY before all these fancy devices and "tuner programs" came out. Back in the day, we were greatful for a damn Scanmaster and put some big numbers out by just reading 02's, knock, fuel pressure, reading exhaust color and spark plugs.
I also agree with Tony and the fact that the numbers you put down at the track are indicative of a very high 500hp car. If you want big dyno numbers, take it to a dynojet and lock the converter. On a dyno, unlocked, that converter is reacting to the load placed on it by weight and power. IMO, you cannot properly load a big stall converter by "ramping up" the power in a "drive" gear on a dyno run.
I hope that eases your mind and personally, I would be happy with those track runs...minus the minor trans. issue.
I also agree with Tony and the fact that the numbers you put down at the track are indicative of a very high 500hp car. If you want big dyno numbers, take it to a dynojet and lock the converter. On a dyno, unlocked, that converter is reacting to the load placed on it by weight and power. IMO, you cannot properly load a big stall converter by "ramping up" the power in a "drive" gear on a dyno run.
I hope that eases your mind and personally, I would be happy with those track runs...minus the minor trans. issue.
02-13-2006, 11:54 AM
#60
Originally Posted by Chuck@HPE
As of today I'm raising my tuning prices to 500 dollars, nobody recieves discounts, and everybody gets treated the same. I spent more time working on driveability than I did WOT, made a couple dyno pulls, close to where I wanted it. 300 dollar tune, figured they got a bargain.
Just an FYI that it seemed obvious you weren't being paid to spend the time to optimize each combo to it's full potential....I was just making a general comment about how additional time spent on the dyno would more than likely free up more power (trying to address his original concerns of "perceived" low dyno numbers).
Seems like he left with his car more drivable and a pretty good WOT tune based on his track results....certainly well worth the money he spent even if there is a little more power to be found.
Sorry if you took it the wrong way...I was trying to word it more of a general statement (trying to emphasize more time on the dyno usually pays off in more power being found) than pointing a finger at you....I should have spelled it out a little clearer than I did.
Tony
Last edited by Tony Mamo @ AFR; 02-13-2006 at 12:09 PM.