Very Dissapointed with dyno results today...
05-08-2006, 09:30 AM
#61
Originally Posted by RaNsOm
first of all, you dynoed very low cam-only to begin with. So dont be expecting too much, unless there was a problem before.
I dynoed 10rwhp and 20rwtq higher with a lot smaller B1 cam (221/.558/114)
how can you say that? the 28.8's hold my 419rwhp just fine.
I dynoed 10rwhp and 20rwtq higher with a lot smaller B1 cam (221/.558/114)
how can you say that? the 28.8's hold my 419rwhp just fine.
05-08-2006, 09:48 AM
#62
evyerone says they hold fine but if you are past 70-80% they arent holding fine, bolt on cars and small small cam cars max out the stock ones. an injector maxing out CAN hurt your power if its getting up there. as low as these numbers are there is more wrong then injectors and a tune IMO.
remind me to send you another config joshp, i dont think injector pulse width is in it, i saved it before i added it.
remind me to send you another config joshp, i dont think injector pulse width is in it, i saved it before i added it.
05-08-2006, 10:18 AM
#63
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Originally Posted by BADSS
You're not gonna gain power with new injectors unless your engine is starving for fuel- and I don't think you are.
Will you be safer with larger injectors running at a lower DC than stock injectors running at a higher DC? Yes. But it is doubtful that you will gain power. There are lots of LS1's running heads and cam, well over 400 RWHP on stock injectors and not having any problems. The higher duty cycles are really only dangerous during prolonged high RPM, WOT usage. Short bursts at high DC, like what you see doing a 1/4 mile run, will not overheat and lock up the injectors.
I would do a leakdown test on the engine.
I would have it retuned.
Are you sure the cam was degreed properly?
Are you sure you didn't get one of the F13 cams from the bad batch?
Will you be safer with larger injectors running at a lower DC than stock injectors running at a higher DC? Yes. But it is doubtful that you will gain power. There are lots of LS1's running heads and cam, well over 400 RWHP on stock injectors and not having any problems. The higher duty cycles are really only dangerous during prolonged high RPM, WOT usage. Short bursts at high DC, like what you see doing a 1/4 mile run, will not overheat and lock up the injectors.
I would do a leakdown test on the engine.
I would have it retuned.
Are you sure the cam was degreed properly?
Are you sure you didn't get one of the F13 cams from the bad batch?
Last edited by joshp14; 05-11-2006 at 08:34 AM.
05-08-2006, 11:23 AM
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pop off the lid and MAF and have a look at the throttle opening. Have a buddy mash the gas (with the car off of course) and look at the blade/linkage to make sure everything is ok.
If you swapped to 4.10s from 3.42s you are losing ~8-10RWHP right there.
If you swapped to 4.10s from 3.42s you are losing ~8-10RWHP right there.
05-08-2006, 12:36 PM
#65
Originally Posted by joshp14
I will do a compression check and leakdown test. The cam was installed dot to dot. It runs great...idles good. I did get a bad F13 cam...remember the "My lifters ate my F13" thread?...that was mine. This setup is on the new F13 cam grind. I currently dont have the funds to get it retuned...so I will have to wait on that part.
Oh, dude...my bad. I didn't realize that was you..
You've had more than your fair share of bad luck, haven't you?
Good luck with getting it all worked out, and report back to us on the results.
05-08-2006, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by BADSS
Oh, dude...my bad. I didn't realize that was you..
You've had more than your fair share of bad luck, haven't you?
Good luck with getting it all worked out, and report back to us on the results.
You've had more than your fair share of bad luck, haven't you?
Good luck with getting it all worked out, and report back to us on the results.
I was thinking about this some more...could the heads be installed on opposite sides? I compared the heads and could find no difference between the two so I assumed it didnt matter which side they go on. Sounds like a dumb question but figured I would ask. It may not even matter....
05-08-2006, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by xlr8shn
Out of curiousity, how do you rationalize that statement? 
dyno your car with 3.42s
install 4.10s
redyno
You will be down 8-10RWHP
Your motor isn't making less power. It is increased parasitic drivetrain loss.
It shows up as less on the dyno.
I have seen this with about 25 cars on the dyno including three of my own.
05-08-2006, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by CHRISPY
How do I rationalize it?
dyno your car with 3.42s
install 4.10s
redyno
You will be down 8-10RWHP
Your motor isn't making less power. It is increased parasitic drivetrain loss.
It shows up as less on the dyno.
I have seen this with about 25 cars on the dyno including three of my own.
dyno your car with 3.42s
install 4.10s
redyno
You will be down 8-10RWHP
Your motor isn't making less power. It is increased parasitic drivetrain loss.
It shows up as less on the dyno.
I have seen this with about 25 cars on the dyno including three of my own.
Ouch!
Thanks for the explanation. I hadn't considered it factoring into drivetrain loss.
05-08-2006, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by xlr8shn
Ouch!
Thanks for the explanation. I hadn't considered it factoring into drivetrain loss.
Thanks for the explanation. I hadn't considered it factoring into drivetrain loss.
Last edited by CHRISPY; 05-08-2006 at 01:41 PM.
05-08-2006, 01:52 PM
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Josh we can scan it sometime here soon with my efilive. I also have a set of hardend 7.4" pushrods you could borrow for the time being if you want to verify.
05-08-2006, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by joshp14
Yup sadly enough I have...ah well...I live by the phrase "**** happens"....it helps me get thru my days.
I was thinking about this some more...could the heads be installed on opposite sides? I compared the heads and could find no difference between the two so I assumed it didnt matter which side they go on. Sounds like a dumb question but figured I would ask. It may not even matter....
I was thinking about this some more...could the heads be installed on opposite sides? I compared the heads and could find no difference between the two so I assumed it didnt matter which side they go on. Sounds like a dumb question but figured I would ask. It may not even matter....
05-08-2006, 05:36 PM
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PLEASE just check the throttle body once and for all!
Injector duty cycle boys:
I'm running about as extreme a heads cam as you can get on stock 346 inches; Stage 2 LS6 Heads, TSP MS3 Cam, Kooks 1 7/8" Headers, LSX 90/90 Intake/Throttle Body, etc. Stock injectors.
Do I need to upgrade them, sure. I've had the replacements sitting in my garage for 3 months now
Is it a "VITAL" necessity . . . obviously not.
Gentlemen, unless you're road-racing or going WOT up the highway for 10 minutes or so your injectors won't lock up.
Injector duty cycle boys:
I'm running about as extreme a heads cam as you can get on stock 346 inches; Stage 2 LS6 Heads, TSP MS3 Cam, Kooks 1 7/8" Headers, LSX 90/90 Intake/Throttle Body, etc. Stock injectors.
Do I need to upgrade them, sure. I've had the replacements sitting in my garage for 3 months now
Is it a "VITAL" necessity . . . obviously not.
Gentlemen, unless you're road-racing or going WOT up the highway for 10 minutes or so your injectors won't lock up.
05-08-2006, 05:50 PM
#74
If you want to make a package come together correctly and make the most power, setting everything up correctly IS vital, esp when looking for problems. If the small things add up, 5 hp here 3 there, he may only be down 20 hp instead of 60, which narrows things down even more. The odd thing is at high rpms the heads did nothing. Something is limiting the motor on the top end and fuel CAN be one of those things along with many others such as the TB, ect.
05-08-2006, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by WS6FirebirdTA00
If you want to make a package come together correctly and make the most power, setting everything up correctly IS vital, esp when looking for problems. If the small things add up, 5 hp here 3 there, he may only be down 20 hp instead of 60, which narrows things down even more. The odd thing is at high rpms the heads did nothing. Something is limiting the motor on the top end and fuel CAN be one of those things along with many others such as the TB, ect.
His car is down close to 80 rwhp . . . maybe more with a proper tune.
If it's a fueling problem . . . then it's a problem with the injectors, pump, etc. getting into the chamber; not duty cycle.
Again, you mislead in your post. We're not just looking for his car to make the "most power" possible . . . he's not down 10 or 20 ponies here dude . . . +80 horsepower is a mechanical problem that is HUGE. Far more than duty cycle.
And 10 degrees of timing ain't gonna find that power
I've been tuning for over 5 years and moderate on a tuning site. He's got a problem somewhere.
05-08-2006, 05:58 PM
#76
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OK guys I finally got a chance to check the throttle body...It looked fine to me...I had my fiance get in a put the pedal to the floor and I snapped some pics. The throttle cam hit the stop on the side of the throttle body and then I snapped the pics....what do you guys think...I dont think this is the problem.
05-08-2006, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by joshp14
OK guys I finally got a chance to check the throttle body...It looked fine to me...I had my fiance get in a put the pedal to the floor and I snapped some pics. The throttle cam hit the stop on the side of the throttle body and then I snapped the pics....what do you guys think...I dont think this is the problem.
05-08-2006, 06:15 PM
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AFR was fairly consistant around or maybe a nudge higher than 13....you will have to look at the graph in the first post. I havent done any logging yet...I pulled the file out of the PCM yesturday cuz someone wanted to take a look at it to see if anything stood out...he said nuthin did.
I know some of it is irrelevant but I just copy and pasted:
SLP Air Lid
Holley Powershot Air Filter
SLP Smooth Air Bellows
Ported/Polished Throttle Body
Jet-Hot LT Headers with Catted Y-Pipe
GMMG Chambered Catback Exhaust System w/Polished Oval Tips
AFR 205 Heads (2.02" Int & 1.60" Exh Valves)
Heads Milled .024" (11.37 SCR, 8.75 DCR)
Cometic MLS .040" Head Gaskets (.032" Quench)
ARP Hex Head Bolts
Morel Lifters
FM 13 Cam (230/232 .595"/.585" 112+4 LSA)
Dual Valve Spring Kit w/Titanium Retainers
7.325" Chromemoly Hardened Pushrods
ASP Underdrive Crank Pulley
SLP Ported Oil Pump
German Castrol 0W-30 Synthetic Oil
LS2 Timing Chain
AIR System Delete & Rear O2 Delete
SLP 160* Thermostat
Greddy Catch Can
MSD 8.5mm Super Conductor Plug Wire Set
NGK TR55 Plugs
Spec Stage 3 Clutch w/Drill Mod
Strange 4.10 Gears
TA Performance Stud Kit
TA Rear Cover Girdle
Royal Purple Max Gear Oil
WS6Store 6" Short Shifter
Earl's Hyperfirm SS Braided Brake Lines
Hawks HPS Brake Pads
Painted Calipers with 'Trans Am' Decals
Chassis & Suspension
RPM Speed Tubular Strut Tower Brace
Spohn Tubular Weld-On Sub-Frame Connectors
Spohn Adjustable Panhard Rod (Spherical Rod Ends)
Spohn Adjustable Lower Control Arms (Poly/Spherical Rod Ends)
Spohn Weld-on LCA Relocation Brackets
Custom ASC Dash Plaque
Macewen Silver Faced Gauge Overlays
Raptor Performance Shift Light
Embroidered "WS6" Rear Seat Belt Covers
Embroidered Front Floor Mats
Tinted Windows
Stainless Steel "PONTIAC" Rear Inserts
Alpine CDA-9831 MP3/CD Player
MTX Thunderform w/8000 10" Sub
MTX Thunder Amplifier
PCM Tuned by Jeff Creech
I just remembered that i re-oiled my air filter during the head swap. I didnt it conservatively cuz I didnt want to worry about the MAF.
I know some of it is irrelevant but I just copy and pasted:
SLP Air Lid
Holley Powershot Air Filter
SLP Smooth Air Bellows
Ported/Polished Throttle Body
Jet-Hot LT Headers with Catted Y-Pipe
GMMG Chambered Catback Exhaust System w/Polished Oval Tips
AFR 205 Heads (2.02" Int & 1.60" Exh Valves)
Heads Milled .024" (11.37 SCR, 8.75 DCR)
Cometic MLS .040" Head Gaskets (.032" Quench)
ARP Hex Head Bolts
Morel Lifters
FM 13 Cam (230/232 .595"/.585" 112+4 LSA)
Dual Valve Spring Kit w/Titanium Retainers
7.325" Chromemoly Hardened Pushrods
ASP Underdrive Crank Pulley
SLP Ported Oil Pump
German Castrol 0W-30 Synthetic Oil
LS2 Timing Chain
AIR System Delete & Rear O2 Delete
SLP 160* Thermostat
Greddy Catch Can
MSD 8.5mm Super Conductor Plug Wire Set
NGK TR55 Plugs
Spec Stage 3 Clutch w/Drill Mod
Strange 4.10 Gears
TA Performance Stud Kit
TA Rear Cover Girdle
Royal Purple Max Gear Oil
WS6Store 6" Short Shifter
Earl's Hyperfirm SS Braided Brake Lines
Hawks HPS Brake Pads
Painted Calipers with 'Trans Am' Decals
Chassis & Suspension
RPM Speed Tubular Strut Tower Brace
Spohn Tubular Weld-On Sub-Frame Connectors
Spohn Adjustable Panhard Rod (Spherical Rod Ends)
Spohn Adjustable Lower Control Arms (Poly/Spherical Rod Ends)
Spohn Weld-on LCA Relocation Brackets
Custom ASC Dash Plaque
Macewen Silver Faced Gauge Overlays
Raptor Performance Shift Light
Embroidered "WS6" Rear Seat Belt Covers
Embroidered Front Floor Mats
Tinted Windows
Stainless Steel "PONTIAC" Rear Inserts
Alpine CDA-9831 MP3/CD Player
MTX Thunderform w/8000 10" Sub
MTX Thunder Amplifier
PCM Tuned by Jeff Creech
I just remembered that i re-oiled my air filter during the head swap. I didnt it conservatively cuz I didnt want to worry about the MAF.
Last edited by joshp14; 05-08-2006 at 06:21 PM.
05-08-2006, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by joshp14
I know some of it is irrelevant but I just copy and pasted:
SLP Air Lid
Holley Powershot Air Filter
SLP Smooth Air Bellows
Ported/Polished Throttle Body
Jet-Hot LT Headers with Catted Y-Pipe
GMMG Chambered Catback Exhaust System w/Polished Oval Tips
AFR 205 Heads (2.02" Int & 1.60" Exh Valves)
Heads Milled .024" (11.37 SCR, 8.75 DCR)
Cometic MLS .040" Head Gaskets (.032" Quench)
ARP Hex Head Bolts
Morel Lifters
FM 13 Cam (230/232 .595"/.585" 112+4 LSA)
Dual Valve Spring Kit w/Titanium Retainers
7.325" Chromemoly Hardened Pushrods
ASP Underdrive Crank Pulley
SLP Ported Oil Pump
German Castrol 0W-30 Synthetic Oil
LS2 Timing Chain
AIR System Delete & Rear O2 Delete
SLP 160* Thermostat
Greddy Catch Can
MSD 8.5mm Super Conductor Plug Wire Set
NGK TR55 Plugs
Spec Stage 3 Clutch w/Drill Mod
Strange 4.10 Gears
TA Performance Stud Kit
TA Rear Cover Girdle
Royal Purple Max Gear Oil
WS6Store 6" Short Shifter
Earl's Hyperfirm SS Braided Brake Lines
Hawks HPS Brake Pads
Painted Calipers with 'Trans Am' Decals
Chassis & Suspension
RPM Speed Tubular Strut Tower Brace
Spohn Tubular Weld-On Sub-Frame Connectors
Spohn Adjustable Panhard Rod (Spherical Rod Ends)
Spohn Adjustable Lower Control Arms (Poly/Spherical Rod Ends)
Spohn Weld-on LCA Relocation Brackets
Custom ASC Dash Plaque
Macewen Silver Faced Gauge Overlays
Raptor Performance Shift Light
Embroidered "WS6" Rear Seat Belt Covers
Embroidered Front Floor Mats
Tinted Windows
Stainless Steel "PONTIAC" Rear Inserts
Alpine CDA-9831 MP3/CD Player
MTX Thunderform w/8000 10" Sub
MTX Thunder Amplifier
PCM Tuned by Jeff Creech
I just remembered that i re-oiled my air filter during the head swap. I didnt it conservatively cuz I didnt want to worry about the MAF.
SLP Air Lid
Holley Powershot Air Filter
SLP Smooth Air Bellows
Ported/Polished Throttle Body
Jet-Hot LT Headers with Catted Y-Pipe
GMMG Chambered Catback Exhaust System w/Polished Oval Tips
AFR 205 Heads (2.02" Int & 1.60" Exh Valves)
Heads Milled .024" (11.37 SCR, 8.75 DCR)
Cometic MLS .040" Head Gaskets (.032" Quench)
ARP Hex Head Bolts
Morel Lifters
FM 13 Cam (230/232 .595"/.585" 112+4 LSA)
Dual Valve Spring Kit w/Titanium Retainers
7.325" Chromemoly Hardened Pushrods
ASP Underdrive Crank Pulley
SLP Ported Oil Pump
German Castrol 0W-30 Synthetic Oil
LS2 Timing Chain
AIR System Delete & Rear O2 Delete
SLP 160* Thermostat
Greddy Catch Can
MSD 8.5mm Super Conductor Plug Wire Set
NGK TR55 Plugs
Spec Stage 3 Clutch w/Drill Mod
Strange 4.10 Gears
TA Performance Stud Kit
TA Rear Cover Girdle
Royal Purple Max Gear Oil
WS6Store 6" Short Shifter
Earl's Hyperfirm SS Braided Brake Lines
Hawks HPS Brake Pads
Painted Calipers with 'Trans Am' Decals
Chassis & Suspension
RPM Speed Tubular Strut Tower Brace
Spohn Tubular Weld-On Sub-Frame Connectors
Spohn Adjustable Panhard Rod (Spherical Rod Ends)
Spohn Adjustable Lower Control Arms (Poly/Spherical Rod Ends)
Spohn Weld-on LCA Relocation Brackets
Custom ASC Dash Plaque
Macewen Silver Faced Gauge Overlays
Raptor Performance Shift Light
Embroidered "WS6" Rear Seat Belt Covers
Embroidered Front Floor Mats
Tinted Windows
Stainless Steel "PONTIAC" Rear Inserts
Alpine CDA-9831 MP3/CD Player
MTX Thunderform w/8000 10" Sub
MTX Thunder Amplifier
PCM Tuned by Jeff Creech
I just remembered that i re-oiled my air filter during the head swap. I didnt it conservatively cuz I didnt want to worry about the MAF.
Gaining some back from the bump in compression.
Wait a minute . . . do you have cats or not??? O2'S deleted in the back??