Dyno Disclaimers?
Dynojet has a standard waiver ( at least that's what a local dyno shop told me it was) that even waives liability if you intentionally break someone's car. It is one of the most ironclad waivers I have seen in ANY business.
Thread Starter
TECH Enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 564
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From: Omaha, NE
Originally Posted by slow
What a screwed up world we live in.
Who paid you for use of the dyno, him or his tuner? Since he was not there, I can only assume that his tuner paid you for your services. What is on that invoice. (I assume dyno time only)
In a logical world (this goes out of the window with lawyers) there should be no way an apparent third party can make claims for damages not occuring at your place of business.
Dyno waivers are very common based on my expierence. I would reccomend asking this over at the EFI tuners forum as well.
Just a guess based on this attourneys actions, is he an ambulance chaser/personal injury attourney? My gut feeling says yes.
Good luck in this situation.
Ryan
Who paid you for use of the dyno, him or his tuner? Since he was not there, I can only assume that his tuner paid you for your services. What is on that invoice. (I assume dyno time only)
In a logical world (this goes out of the window with lawyers) there should be no way an apparent third party can make claims for damages not occuring at your place of business.
Dyno waivers are very common based on my expierence. I would reccomend asking this over at the EFI tuners forum as well.
Just a guess based on this attourneys actions, is he an ambulance chaser/personal injury attourney? My gut feeling says yes.
Good luck in this situation.
Ryan
The car owner took the car to a speed shop for some minor work and the shop delivered the car to us with their tuner. Because this shop does a lot of business with us and we only had to run the dyno, we did not charge them, those are the deals that usually come back to haunt you.
I'll give the Attorney credit on one thing, he confronted us head-on as apposed to going behind our backs badmouthing us and not giving us an opportunity to make it right, which we have a reputation for cheerfully doing that I'm prepared to demonstrate in court.
I plan on fighting this in court if I have to, this Attorney is young and inexperianced and I think I can help him with that. Can you imagine how silly he could look in court, with my help, taking a nice new car, putting a supercharger on it and trying to trick the cars computor with a piggyback with some dials on it, etc, etc. He's got to be crazy, right guys? TTT, any body there?
Hope some of you are learning from this experiance, thanks for your interest and support.
Staging Lane
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 73
Likes: 1
we sign disclaimers as well- I am more leanient w/ it at the shop than we are on the road though. If the customer took the car back, it "should" take it out of your hands. Maybe he missed a shift on the way home, maybe it was a bad day at the factory for the guy who built the motor. Maybe the fuel filter with 40,000 miles on it finally plugged up to cut the fuel enough on a top speed contest. It sucks when people do that to you, but even when you are tuning the car, you have NO control over any other unseen modifications that have been done... (wrong spark plugs, poor fuel, mismatched parts) If you didn't tune it, get the guy who did to testify in court that he never touched the thing. Any tuning module that has switches and dials is almost bound to get screwed with by someone else when it leaves, too! We stand behind our work as well, and when it's our problem (and you usually know when it is/ was) but some people are just out to get you. I think I have an idea who the "tuner" is- It seems to me they take the credit for "their" tuning when its good, but watch out when they screw up, because the pointing arm comes 'a flailin' 
Have everyone sign waivers, install multiple video cameras around the shop, charge more money for dyno time. Maybe that will keep evil wrong doers away.
Sorry to hear this happened.
I wonder what the lawyer did to blow up the motor.
Sorry to hear this happened.
I wonder what the lawyer did to blow up the motor.
a CCTV system with high resolution day/night cameras (520 lines or greater) is well worth its money. $7500-10000 (depending on number of cameras and length/difficulty of cable runs) for a good system installed is well worth the money. It will help prevent theft, help recover stolen property and prove you're not a dick. if you pair that up with a legal disclaimer, you'll be golden. best of luck in this situation
11 Second Club
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From: Albuquerque NM - The Land of 8000ft DA
Originally Posted by dynocar
The car owner took the car to a speed shop for some minor work and the shop delivered the car to us with their tuner. Because this shop does a lot of business with us and we only had to run the dyno, we did not charge them, those are the deals that usually come back to haunt you.
I'll give the Attorney credit on one thing, he confronted us head-on as apposed to going behind our backs badmouthing us and not giving us an opportunity to make it right, which we have a reputation for cheerfully doing that I'm prepared to demonstrate in court.
I plan on fighting this in court if I have to, this Attorney is young and inexperianced and I think I can help him with that. Can you imagine how silly he could look in court, with my help, taking a nice new car, putting a supercharger on it and trying to trick the cars computor with a piggyback with some dials on it, etc, etc. He's got to be crazy, right guys? TTT, any body there?
Hope some of you are learning from this experiance, thanks for your interest and support.
I'll give the Attorney credit on one thing, he confronted us head-on as apposed to going behind our backs badmouthing us and not giving us an opportunity to make it right, which we have a reputation for cheerfully doing that I'm prepared to demonstrate in court.
I plan on fighting this in court if I have to, this Attorney is young and inexperianced and I think I can help him with that. Can you imagine how silly he could look in court, with my help, taking a nice new car, putting a supercharger on it and trying to trick the cars computor with a piggyback with some dials on it, etc, etc. He's got to be crazy, right guys? TTT, any body there?
Hope some of you are learning from this experiance, thanks for your interest and support.
The last time I was in court it came down to who was the better liar.
Do you have anything concrete?
Originally Posted by ninjamaster
Have everyone sign waivers, install multiple video cameras around the shop, charge more money for dyno time. Maybe that will keep evil wrong doers away.
Sorry to hear this happened.
I wonder what the lawyer did to blow up the motor.
Sorry to hear this happened.
I wonder what the lawyer did to blow up the motor.
It's cheep too http://www.performance-dyno.com/webcam/webcam.htm
Teching In
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 39
Likes: 1
From: cincinnati
I would think that the burden of proof (proof that its your fault)would be on your lawyer friend the car was running when it left your shop. who was driving when it blew,where was he driving, what rpm, what parts let go, were these parts sized right for a turbo, what fuel was in the car, what does the manufacturer say about adding a turbo what does the turbo manufacturer say all thes questions have to not only be answered by an expert but also reflect your fault...let him find an expert auto engineer who says adding peformance parts has no detrimantal effect on a production motor. tell him to pound salt ...court-bring it on
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Originally Posted by 455SD
I would think that the burden of proof (proof that its your fault)would be on your lawyer friend the car was running when it left your shop. who was driving when it blew,where was he driving, what rpm, what parts let go, were these parts sized right for a turbo, what fuel was in the car, what does the manufacturer say about adding a turbo what does the turbo manufacturer say all thes questions have to not only be answered by an expert but also reflect your fault...let him find an expert auto engineer who says adding peformance parts has no detrimantal effect on a production motor. tell him to pound salt ...court-bring it on
This is very true. All the court cares about is proooooof. One thing. Thats all. Prove that you did it. How can they prove? You did not tune it. Prove you physically without a doubt blew the motor. And, the guy will also have to have his proof as well, which means he will have to tear the motor down, take it to a specialist, pay to have it inspected. Then from there he would have to use this evidence as proof somehow to show the court that you did this. Which now transfers to tuning, or other aspects in that without touching the car, its difficult to even prove why a part broke.
Rick
Unfortunately, this also sounds like a trick that anybody with access to a lawyer can play.
Step #1 threaten to sue company that does not have easy access to legal council. (or lawyer on retainer to fight legal issues)
Step #2, offer to settle out of court for cash, lower than the original suit is for, or total legal cost is estimed to be
Step #3, as the lawyer/con artist, enjoy cash you got from victim.
While I really hope this is not the intent here, it sure sounds like something I have heard of before in various industries, and is a point of view to consider.
Ryan
Step #1 threaten to sue company that does not have easy access to legal council. (or lawyer on retainer to fight legal issues)
Step #2, offer to settle out of court for cash, lower than the original suit is for, or total legal cost is estimed to be
Step #3, as the lawyer/con artist, enjoy cash you got from victim.
While I really hope this is not the intent here, it sure sounds like something I have heard of before in various industries, and is a point of view to consider.
Ryan
i would fight this 100% he has NO leg to stand on he is trying to scare you cus he is a "lawyer" and people today are more scared of being sued than defending themselves when they re right
and if you didnt charge him then he has NO recipt for anything!!!!!
and if you didnt charge him then he has NO recipt for anything!!!!!
Can he even prove that the car was in your shop? You said that he does not have an invoice, right? Did he get a dyno sheet w/ your shops name on it? Was the vehicle towed out or driven out? If the vehicle was driveable when it left and you didn't do any of the mechanical installation, I can't see how they could prove that you had anything to do with the damage that happened afterwards. There are just too many variables, specially when dealing with racecar applications. You said that it came from another shop and you let them use your dyno, right? So he would have to get this guy from this other shop to get on the stand and lie for him. By doing this, he is verifying that there was someone else that was actually doing the work and therefore should shift some if not all of the liability on the other shop. On top of that, it sounds like you aren't even the one that did the actual dyno operation. How many people witnessed what happened? They would all testify to the fact as well. This is not an easy slam dunk case for Mr. Lawyer guy. I think that there is just too much gray.
I make all cars being dynoed sign a waiver also. To many unknow variables in someone else's combo and building capabiltly, and tuning ability's. Not even saying it was the tuner's fault, ( Other than him throwing you under the bus ) it could have been a part failure. Did he have a shop disassemeble the motor to determine what failed ? I would also take this to court. On another note, How do you think the court system would look at this case with the lawyer repping himself on the matter since it is his own personal car ? Just a thought and good luck.
Thread Starter
TECH Enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 564
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From: Omaha, NE
Thanks everyone for your input. Here is where I'm at, I sent a letter back basically stating that, "We, as a matter of policy, do not work on tuning systems that we are not familiar with and that we did not look at, touch or tune your tuning device and you should contact the people who did. Because of this, we feel absolutely no responsibility for whatever you feel that your damages are and are prepared to go to court with our supporting evidence."
Unquote, we are being advised by an attorney who has had a lot of experiance with auto/dealer cases and obviously we do not want to go public with our supporting evidence.
Unquote, we are being advised by an attorney who has had a lot of experiance with auto/dealer cases and obviously we do not want to go public with our supporting evidence.
11 Second Club
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From: Albuquerque NM - The Land of 8000ft DA
Originally Posted by dynocar
Thanks everyone for your input. Here is where I'm at, I sent a letter back basically stating that, "We, as a matter of policy, do not work on tuning systems that we are not familiar with and that we did not look at, touch or tune your tuning device and you should contact the people who did. Because of this, we feel absolutely no responsibility for whatever you feel that your damages are and are prepared to go to court with our supporting evidence."
Unquote, we are being advised by an attorney who has had a lot of experiance with auto/dealer cases and obviously we do not want to go public with our supporting evidence.
Unquote, we are being advised by an attorney who has had a lot of experiance with auto/dealer cases and obviously we do not want to go public with our supporting evidence.
Screw the lying scumbag hard! After you win, sue him for your legal costs that stemmed from you being fasely accused. Matter of fact, I'd send another letter stating my intentions to do so...
Dish them out some of their own scare tactic medicine
Dish them out some of their own scare tactic medicine
Teching In
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
All lawyers learn this phrase early on in law school, "sue every one for every thing." I suspect he is also considering sueing the tuner as well. This initial grandstanding by the attorney will more than likely allow him to develop evidence from all parties involved in order to bring a legitimate suit against the person he feels has the most chance for assuming liability. I'm sure the tuner is telling him it is your fault just like you are telling him it is the tuners fault. If he sues every one involved he is going to catch the person responsible (if responsibility even exists). The little phrase "assumption of risk" may be his downfall given that his modifications are extreme in most folks mind and I'd be willing to bet beyond the recommendations of the specific engine/car company (assuming this was on a "stock" engine). If such modifcations would void the manufac. warranty on an engine, the attorney will have a tough time moving forward with this suit. Don't be too concerned, the attorney is just trying to scare everyone and see if get an easy out. There is no way the attorney would take this to court, it would not be worth his time either.
Wouldn't there be some kind of insurance that would handle a case like this? I also believe that if a car was to break on your property on a dyno you are responsible for the injury of that person. Thats what property insurance is for. Even if some one trips and hurts themselves on my front ramp I'm still responsible for there injury even with signs posting injury could occur. I would think the only way you could be hardly responsible for the engine would be if the car blew on the dyno because there are just to many variables involved in a case like this. It would even be hard to prove you blew the motor even if you did do it.
On the tree
Joined: May 2004
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People are sue happy anymore. I had a lady running thru my store 4 years ago, "she" tripped over a very obvious display stand that was on the floor.
needless to say, two years ago I got a letter from my old companies atty asking if I would go to court for them to fight the lawsuit she had taken out. she was trying to get $500,000 for her own stupid fault of running.
You did the right thing, stand your ground now and wait for it to go to court.
and make lots of atty friends along the way, never hurts to have to many behind you and on your side.
needless to say, two years ago I got a letter from my old companies atty asking if I would go to court for them to fight the lawsuit she had taken out. she was trying to get $500,000 for her own stupid fault of running.
You did the right thing, stand your ground now and wait for it to go to court.
and make lots of atty friends along the way, never hurts to have to many behind you and on your side.
Banned
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,636
Likes: 2
Originally Posted by dynocar
How common are diclaimers at dyno shops? We have never used them at our shop but it is getting apparent that we should use them, too many things to go wrong that we don't have any control over. Today in this increased world of litagation and courts that increasingly side with the consumer, tuners are very exposed.
A recent example, because our tuning shop does not dyno tune computers that we are not familiar with, we give (used to give) the customer the option of bringing their own tuner and we just run the dyno. Well, this customer's tuner shows up with the customer's car without the owner, we dyno, he tunes. The next day the owner's supercharged car blows up, in a registered letter from an attorney, we are asked to pay for the engine or get sued, his tuner now states that WE did the tuning. Like always, we are being advised to just pay because the cost of defending could exceed the $6500 being asked for the engine. Personally, I would be willing to pay these legal fees or more just to see the tuner lie on a stack of Bibles. But like stated previously, I don't fully trust courts, especially when they usually favor the consumer and it could cost these fees plus an engine. Have to decide what to do but disclaimers and higher dyno prices are long past due, I'm the dumby.
A recent example, because our tuning shop does not dyno tune computers that we are not familiar with, we give (used to give) the customer the option of bringing their own tuner and we just run the dyno. Well, this customer's tuner shows up with the customer's car without the owner, we dyno, he tunes. The next day the owner's supercharged car blows up, in a registered letter from an attorney, we are asked to pay for the engine or get sued, his tuner now states that WE did the tuning. Like always, we are being advised to just pay because the cost of defending could exceed the $6500 being asked for the engine. Personally, I would be willing to pay these legal fees or more just to see the tuner lie on a stack of Bibles. But like stated previously, I don't fully trust courts, especially when they usually favor the consumer and it could cost these fees plus an engine. Have to decide what to do but disclaimers and higher dyno prices are long past due, I'm the dumby.
Man, that really sucks about the situation though. Court is where someone decides who has the best lawyer and yes, a good lawyer would cost something, but I doubt $6500. When I was involved in a child custody case (my own, over me (I have no child)) the price of the lawyer (VERY GOOD ONE) was about half that IIRC. I would take it on to court/counter sue for cost of defence.
PS. atty friends are VERY helpful. Try to establish a professional as well as friend-based relationship with yours. When I had a drunk driver run into me, I became friends w/my lawyer, he took less than his normal chunk of change from my case and I got more $$ and he invited me to his christmas party, ect. ect. Overall a good experience except for the pain of having my back out in 3 places.