vindicatorII dyno #'s
07-26-2007, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by SEBLS1
I don't consider 6500 rpm on the 1-2 shift & 7000RPM on the 2-3 shift reving to the moon its not much higer then stock. I believe redline on our motors stock is 6000 rpm & with a good set of Valve springs. 7000 rpm shift should not be a big deal on the 2-3 shift 
If you don't consider 7000+ rpm on a stock bottom end reving sky high, then I pray for your motor...
The term "sky high" is used to describe the fact that you are having to go WAY past redline just to produce the cams peak power...It doesn't mean that 7000 rpms are HIGH. I mean hell, many are spinning forged motors past 8k...but they're BUILT and are generally TRACK CARS, but not always as in this case...
PS- valvesprings aren't the only moving part when a motor is turning...there are the PISTONS, RODS, CRANK, ROD BOLTS (though they don't move neccesarily), push rods, lifters, cam, timing chain, etcetc.... having to spin 7000+rpm to make power WILL take its toll on all of those components in some way or another...like I said, it'll get OLD
Not worth it IMO just to make some crazy numbers...power under the curve ???...
Erik
07-26-2007, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by SEBLS1
Erik that makes perfect sense. Now I see where you are coming from & I agree 100% with you. On a daily, Yes the Vindicator Cam is probably to big
I just don't want this to happen:
Joe Schmo comes on this site because he wants to make more power in his LSx powered vehicle...SO, the first thing he does is go to the dyno section and DROOLS over the fact that a guy with a cam only set up put over 420 @ the wheels...so he thinks he should do the same...
Meanwhile he has no idea that the cam is not intended to drive your grandma to church on Sunday morning lol..a few hundred miles later, he now realizes that in order to go anywhere, he has to beat the **** out of his motor, something he probably didn't intend on doing when he first set out on his venture.
I am VERY impressed by these vindicator cams..reminds me of the Magic Stick series! Let's just make things clear for all to see, every cam has its purpose, and YES, you can absolutely overcam a 346 without even knowing it...
That's all I am getting at...
07-26-2007, 03:18 PM
#24
I've rode in a Z06 with the original vindicator, stock gearing, TFS 215 heads, and every bolt-on, and you don't have to get the motor to 5500 rpm to start making power. It starts pulling hard at 2800-3000 rpm and goes effortlessly to 7200. You don't have to wind the hell out of the motor to start making power. Granted, this is a cam that was designed for optimal performance with a good set of heads, it still makes good power with stock ones, as proven by the gentleman who started this thread.
07-26-2007, 03:37 PM
#25
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Originally Posted by 67SS&99SS
I've rode in a Z06 with the original vindicator, stock gearing, TFS 215 heads, and every bolt-on, and you don't have to get the motor to 5500 rpm to start making power. It starts pulling hard at 2800-3000 rpm and goes effortlessly to 7200. You don't have to wind the hell out of the motor to start making power. Granted, this is a cam that was designed for optimal performance with a good set of heads, it still makes good power with stock ones, as proven by the gentleman who started this thread.
H/C car > C car...H/C = better power band, even if the 2 cars have the same peak power probably.
Last edited by ExceSSive; 07-26-2007 at 03:48 PM.
07-26-2007, 04:05 PM
#26
Erik,
I can certainly agree with you about the Vindicator not being for everyone, BUT you do not have to rev any higher with the Vindicator than any other camshaft to have good power.
The graph posted below represents two Z06s with identical mods with the exception of the camshafts. The Z06 making 409 has our VRX3 camshaft in it and the Z06 making 438 has our Vindicator camshaft. Notice that there is ZERO loss down low with the Vindicator Vs our VRX3 (226/228 114). If someone has a REPUTABLE tuner to make the larger cam run well, then the choice is a no brainer.... Tuning and VALVE EVENTS is where it is at with these packages plain and simple.
I think the graph below will explain the rest of my thoughts...
I can certainly agree with you about the Vindicator not being for everyone, BUT you do not have to rev any higher with the Vindicator than any other camshaft to have good power.
The graph posted below represents two Z06s with identical mods with the exception of the camshafts. The Z06 making 409 has our VRX3 camshaft in it and the Z06 making 438 has our Vindicator camshaft. Notice that there is ZERO loss down low with the Vindicator Vs our VRX3 (226/228 114). If someone has a REPUTABLE tuner to make the larger cam run well, then the choice is a no brainer.... Tuning and VALVE EVENTS is where it is at with these packages plain and simple.
I think the graph below will explain the rest of my thoughts...
Last edited by Ron@Vengeance; 07-26-2007 at 09:11 PM.
07-26-2007, 04:21 PM
#29
Smaller cams are easier to tune and do tend to have better drivability on the street. IF someone takes their time with the combo these larger cams can be dialed in to drive just as nice.
Originally Posted by Stang's Bane
Then why even sell the smaller cam???
07-26-2007, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by ERIK@MASPORT
Did I miss his plans for the car?? If so I apologize...is it a track car?
I just don't want this to happen:
Joe Schmo comes on this site because he wants to make more power in his LSx powered vehicle...SO, the first thing he does is go to the dyno section and DROOLS over the fact that a guy with a cam only set up put over 420 @ the wheels...so he thinks he should do the same...
Meanwhile he has no idea that the cam is not intended to drive your grandma to church on Sunday morning lol..a few hundred miles later, he now realizes that in order to go anywhere, he has to beat the **** out of his motor, something he probably didn't intend on doing when he first set out on his venture.
I am VERY impressed by these vindicator cams..reminds me of the Magic Stick series! Let's just make things clear for all to see, every cam has its purpose, and YES, you can absolutely overcam a 346 without even knowing it...
That's all I am getting at...
I just don't want this to happen:
Joe Schmo comes on this site because he wants to make more power in his LSx powered vehicle...SO, the first thing he does is go to the dyno section and DROOLS over the fact that a guy with a cam only set up put over 420 @ the wheels...so he thinks he should do the same...
Meanwhile he has no idea that the cam is not intended to drive your grandma to church on Sunday morning lol..a few hundred miles later, he now realizes that in order to go anywhere, he has to beat the **** out of his motor, something he probably didn't intend on doing when he first set out on his venture.
I am VERY impressed by these vindicator cams..reminds me of the Magic Stick series! Let's just make things clear for all to see, every cam has its purpose, and YES, you can absolutely overcam a 346 without even knowing it...
That's all I am getting at...
You couldn't be more off base if you jumped off the side of a mountain....give it up, see below for my losses down low, its amazing the car even idles threw a parking lot huh?
07-26-2007, 09:53 PM
#33
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What dyno at what shop was were these numbers made?
No fxxxing way will that car make that power on the dyno's "most" shops use.
420 plus in a stalled auto with a LS1 intake. Doesn't even have the best headers.
I am sure the converter was locked, but still your telling me that a 853 casting LS1 intake manifold Auto made 420+ RWHP or 525+ flywheel HP... Even the graph Ron provided with the Z06 with 243 castings, a extra 1/2 point of compression and a much better manifold made 439 RWHP. That's is believable, and in comparision adds up to 518 flywheel HP. Therefore the Auto car made more flywheel HP then the Z06 car.
I am not here to argue dyno numbers, or beat the numbers down. I feel like I am saying what many other must be thinking. Just trying to seperate facts from fiction and see what dyno these numbers were put down on.
Take her to the track and run 99+MPH in the 1/8 and 120+ in the 1/4 and back those numbers up.
Good luck and CONGS on the strong results. You should have a **** ton of fun blowing those tires off.
No fxxxing way will that car make that power on the dyno's "most" shops use.
420 plus in a stalled auto with a LS1 intake. Doesn't even have the best headers.
I am sure the converter was locked, but still your telling me that a 853 casting LS1 intake manifold Auto made 420+ RWHP or 525+ flywheel HP... Even the graph Ron provided with the Z06 with 243 castings, a extra 1/2 point of compression and a much better manifold made 439 RWHP. That's is believable, and in comparision adds up to 518 flywheel HP. Therefore the Auto car made more flywheel HP then the Z06 car.
I am not here to argue dyno numbers, or beat the numbers down. I feel like I am saying what many other must be thinking. Just trying to seperate facts from fiction and see what dyno these numbers were put down on.
Take her to the track and run 99+MPH in the 1/8 and 120+ in the 1/4 and back those numbers up.
Good luck and CONGS on the strong results. You should have a **** ton of fun blowing those tires off.
Last edited by MPHmotorsports; 07-27-2007 at 06:52 AM.
07-26-2007, 10:30 PM
#34
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Originally Posted by 347fairless
You couldn't be more off base if you jumped off the side of a mountain....give it up, see below for my losses down low, its amazing the car even idles threw a parking lot huh?
AND thats not the arguement, the true argument is that u have to rev that high to get the power
i wasnt gonna get into this but now i will
the argument is that a cam that revs to 7000rpm AND HAS A POWERBAND IN THAT RANGE is not for everyone, and u sacrifice a fast peak for a longer drawn out powerband.
erik is not saying that it wont make power down low, its just that it takes to long for that power to finally come up. ive driven his car MANY times, and he makes alot more power then you do, and i DO not like how i have to take the car to 7000 to feel what it can do. my friends 225/225 cammed car is alot more fun on the street because i can hit peak lower and shift the hell out of it.
HE IS NOT SAYING ITS SLOW JUST THAT ON THE STREET ITS NOT MUCH FUN, its almost too much
and he is 100% right.
07-26-2007, 10:35 PM
#35
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Originally Posted by MPHmotorsports
You guys must have some real good weather in Georgia to get these dyno numbers. I have seen your dyno vs others in your area comparisons, so it must be the weather or the gas must be 98 octane or something.
No fxxxing way will that car make that power on the dyno's "most" shops use.
420 plus in a stalled auto with a LS1 intake. Doesn't even have the best headers.
Either that or someone forgot the word TFS 215 heads.
I am sure the converter was locked, but still your telling me that a 853 casting LS1 intake manifold Auto made 420+ RWHP or 525+ flywheel HP... Even the graph with the Z06 with 243 castings, a extra 1/2 point of compression and a much better manifold made 439 RWHP. That's is believable, and in comparision adds up to 518 flywheel HP. Therefore the Auto car made more flywheel HP then the Z06 car.
I am not here to argue dyno numbers, or beat the numbers down. I feel like I am saying what many other must be thinking. To the owner of this car if your ever about 600 miles south in Florida come by and throw your car on our dyno. If these numbers are repeatable I will buy all my cams from Vengence.
Please don't think I am bashing. I have talked to Ron and the guys there a few times and don't think they are liars or anything crazy. Just think these numbers are a bit crazy. Here in Florida we produce a ton of professional football players, and people say it must be something in the water. That's all I am saying. It must be something in the weather. Take her to the track and run 99+MPH in the 1/8 and 120+ in the 1/4 and back those numbers up.
Good luck and CONGS on the strong results. You should have a **** ton of fun blowing those tires off.
No fxxxing way will that car make that power on the dyno's "most" shops use.
420 plus in a stalled auto with a LS1 intake. Doesn't even have the best headers.
Either that or someone forgot the word TFS 215 heads.
I am sure the converter was locked, but still your telling me that a 853 casting LS1 intake manifold Auto made 420+ RWHP or 525+ flywheel HP... Even the graph with the Z06 with 243 castings, a extra 1/2 point of compression and a much better manifold made 439 RWHP. That's is believable, and in comparision adds up to 518 flywheel HP. Therefore the Auto car made more flywheel HP then the Z06 car.
I am not here to argue dyno numbers, or beat the numbers down. I feel like I am saying what many other must be thinking. To the owner of this car if your ever about 600 miles south in Florida come by and throw your car on our dyno. If these numbers are repeatable I will buy all my cams from Vengence.
Please don't think I am bashing. I have talked to Ron and the guys there a few times and don't think they are liars or anything crazy. Just think these numbers are a bit crazy. Here in Florida we produce a ton of professional football players, and people say it must be something in the water. That's all I am saying. It must be something in the weather. Take her to the track and run 99+MPH in the 1/8 and 120+ in the 1/4 and back those numbers up.
Good luck and CONGS on the strong results. You should have a **** ton of fun blowing those tires off.
Uh, the original poster is from Texas and I don't see anywhere that he said he was tuned and/or dynoed in GA. Our weather is not that much different from you guys down in FL either.
07-26-2007, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by 347fairless
You couldn't be more off base if you jumped off the side of a mountain....give it up, see below for my losses down low, its amazing the car even idles threw a parking lot huh?
Is that so, hmm, ok, let's break this down using info from your graph...
So, @ 3000 rpm you're making a WHOPPING 190 rwhp
@ 4000 rpm, you're making a killer 290 rwhp
@5000 (revs getting higher and HIGHER), you're making a SICK 380 RWHP
...finally you have made it to 6000 rpm, and guess what, you're making 430 rwhp, about 20 rwhp LESS than your peak, which BTW was much higher in the revs, about 6500+ (not your average shift point on a STREET car when going to get some groceries lol)
Now, let's see your trq curve...looks nice, looks healthy, but wait, it doesn't even start to peak until 5000 rpm...WOW, pretty high up there just to try and break the tires loose...
So, thank you for posting your graph, it just proved EXACTLY what I was saying...bigger cams PEAK @ higher rpms, PERIOD...that is not to say they don''t make power, they most certainly do, but it is simple mechanics of a camshaft and its profile that detrmine the power output and when it occurs...
As far as your good idle, thank the tune for that- the cam has NOTHING to do with it...anyone with enough time can tame any camshaft to idle very well, with minor changes to your driving habits for larger cams...
Telling me that I basically have "jumped" off a mountain is a bold statement, especially when you post a graph that proves my prior statements to be correct...
So, Thanks
07-26-2007, 10:50 PM
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People take dyno #'s way too seriously. You can change so many things to make higher #'s, take it to the track and see what mph you pick up. I picked up 7 mph, and could easily hit 120 mph with cooler air while only dynoing at 410 rwhp.
07-26-2007, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Ron@Vengeance
Erik,
I can certainly agree with you about the Vindicator not being for everyone, BUT you do not have to rev any higher with the Vindicator than any other camshaft to have good power.
The graph posted below represents two Z06s with identical mods with the exception of the camshafts. The Z06 making 409 has our VRX3 camshaft in it and the Z06 making 438 has our Vindicator camshaft. Notice that there is ZERO loss down low with the Vindicator Vs our VRX3 (226/228 114). If someone has a REPUTABLE tuner to make the larger cam run well, then the choice is a no brainer.... Tuning and VALVE EVENTS is where it is at with these packages plain and simple.
I think the graph below will explain the rest of my thoughts...
I can certainly agree with you about the Vindicator not being for everyone, BUT you do not have to rev any higher with the Vindicator than any other camshaft to have good power.
The graph posted below represents two Z06s with identical mods with the exception of the camshafts. The Z06 making 409 has our VRX3 camshaft in it and the Z06 making 438 has our Vindicator camshaft. Notice that there is ZERO loss down low with the Vindicator Vs our VRX3 (226/228 114). If someone has a REPUTABLE tuner to make the larger cam run well, then the choice is a no brainer.... Tuning and VALVE EVENTS is where it is at with these packages plain and simple.
I think the graph below will explain the rest of my thoughts...
Hey Ron,
Thank you for adding something worth a dam in this thread...some scientific evidence...
I am not here to knock anyone cams, nor am I here dictating what everyone should and should not buy...
People just HAVE to understand that with these peak numbers we are seeing, there comes a price...i.e.n higher powerband shift, MORE tuning, idle quality...
It is mechanics, plain and simple...
Erik
07-26-2007, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by ls1muscle
People take dyno #'s way too seriously. You can change so many things to make higher #'s, take it to the track and see what mph you pick up. I picked up 7 mph, and could easily hit 120 mph with cooler air while only dynoing at 410 rwhp.
There you go, an educated statement
07-26-2007, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by ExceSSive
Erik's reference was to cam only numbers, a cammed car is obviously going to feel stronger with a quality set of heads especially TFS or AFRs so I am not sure your argument is an apples to apples comparison to what he said.
H/C car > C car...H/C = better power band, even if the 2 cars have the same peak power probably.
H/C car > C car...H/C = better power band, even if the 2 cars have the same peak power probably.
You got it....if anything, a good set of heads with the right sized runner will IMPROVE throttle response and power across the board....hense the reason I can enjoy my MS3 somewhat...my heads I have are awesome and work very well with the cam...
I was referring to cam only applications
