441whp = What @ flywheel???
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From: Bossier city,LA barksdale AFB
441whp = What @ flywheel??? A4 car with Yank ss3600 unlocked stall, stock trans, stock rear. This car dynoed 441whp SAE Where would that put it at the fly wheel?? Oh these #'s were on a mustang dyno
Whats is the % for Auto and M6 thanx
Whats is the % for Auto and M6 thanx
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From: Panama City Florida
Originally Posted by DansRedz28
A4 car with Yank ss3600 unlocked stall, stock trans, stock rear. This car dynoed 441whp SAE Where would that put it at the fly wheel?? Oh these #'s were on a mustang dyno
Whats is the % for Auto and M6 thanx
Whats is the % for Auto and M6 thanx
because the more hp u make the more that will be lost thru the drivetrain...pretty much. a tranny and rear will only take a certain amount to turn, depending on the "stuff" in the tranny and rear (gears, lube, weight of parts, ect)
say u make 450rwhp....take 18% with an auto and u should be making around 530 at the crank. that's 81 hp lost thru the drivetrain
now, if u were making 980rwhp then take 18% out that would be 1156 at the crank. so that would mean a 176 hp loss.
that's why it's a % instead of a set number.
say u make 450rwhp....take 18% with an auto and u should be making around 530 at the crank. that's 81 hp lost thru the drivetrain
now, if u were making 980rwhp then take 18% out that would be 1156 at the crank. so that would mean a 176 hp loss.
that's why it's a % instead of a set number.
Last edited by Screamin_Z; Aug 21, 2007 at 08:43 PM.
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Originally Posted by Screamin_Z
because the more hp u make the more that will be lost thru the drivetrain...pretty much. a tranny and rear will only take a certain amount to turn, depending on the "stuff" in the tranny and rear (gears, lube, weight of parts, ect)
say u make 450rwhp....take 18% with an auto and u should be making around 530 at the crank. that's 81 hp lost thru the drivetrain
now, if u were making 980rwhp then take 18% out that would be 1156 at the crank. so that would mean a 176 hp loss.
that's why it's a % instead of a set number.
say u make 450rwhp....take 18% with an auto and u should be making around 530 at the crank. that's 81 hp lost thru the drivetrain
now, if u were making 980rwhp then take 18% out that would be 1156 at the crank. so that would mean a 176 hp loss.
that's why it's a % instead of a set number.
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There are a few variables to consider mostly the torque converter. Its not so much the percent of power as a fixed variable but more a matter of how much more the same converter may slip with additional power. I have a 4l80E in my car with the ability to lock the converter on command while driving. I recently made a head/cam/intake swap and gained a considerable amount of rwhp with the converter locked(40+) But I only gained 30 with the converter unlocked. It doesn't mean I lose 25% as a fixed number through my drive train but I did with this current change. The only way to truly know is to run on an engine dyno then chassis dyno.
With a locked converter or manual there are still losses but the %/# will vary everytime with every setup.
With a locked converter or manual there are still losses but the %/# will vary everytime with every setup.
it doesn't matter. if it takes 18% of ur power from the engine to turn a tranny and rear then it's going to take 18% no matter what ur HP is.
I see what u are saying but all trannys from a 4L60E to a T400 and all rear ends from a 9in to a 7.5 are different percentages to turn with hp. the less "stuff" u have turning in the tranny the less hp it will take to turn it. the bigger the gear, the heavier the equiptment, the type of fluid ALL depends on what HP u will be making.
ok, go find a small lawn mower wheel and push it up the driveway then get a wheel off ur car and push it up the driveway...which one takes more effort to push? this is like the difference between a 7.5 ring gear and a dana S60...kinda. u get the idea.
if u want, take ur motor out and have it dyno'd on an engine stand. then put it back into ur car and chassis dyno it and find out how much it takes to turn ur drivetrain...figure out the loss as a %. then mod ur motor or whatnot....the % doesn't not change but it takes MORE hp to turn it. it's called the laws of physics.
it takes more force to turn something faster in the same period of time. that's why it's a percentage instead of a set number.
I see what u are saying but all trannys from a 4L60E to a T400 and all rear ends from a 9in to a 7.5 are different percentages to turn with hp. the less "stuff" u have turning in the tranny the less hp it will take to turn it. the bigger the gear, the heavier the equiptment, the type of fluid ALL depends on what HP u will be making.
ok, go find a small lawn mower wheel and push it up the driveway then get a wheel off ur car and push it up the driveway...which one takes more effort to push? this is like the difference between a 7.5 ring gear and a dana S60...kinda. u get the idea.
if u want, take ur motor out and have it dyno'd on an engine stand. then put it back into ur car and chassis dyno it and find out how much it takes to turn ur drivetrain...figure out the loss as a %. then mod ur motor or whatnot....the % doesn't not change but it takes MORE hp to turn it. it's called the laws of physics.
it takes more force to turn something faster in the same period of time. that's why it's a percentage instead of a set number.
thanks for trying to explain it but i honestly still don't get it. laws of physics as i understand them state you just need to overcome friction once everything is moving. so technically, friction doesn't change so it really shouldn't take more power to do it. eh, oh well. i'm not about to lose sleep over this 
Screamin z,
OK now account for this.
1. I have all of the same parts and lock my converter and my % loss gets cut by approx 50%. How does physics calculate for this? Nothing changed but where the fluid pressure is applied.
2. I use your theory of pushing a wheel up my drive way. I increase my strength by 50% making it much easier to push the wheel up the driveway at a faster rate of speed. If your going to use physics as your answer you need to show me some real mathematical theories or formulas to account for the varied losses.
OK now account for this.
1. I have all of the same parts and lock my converter and my % loss gets cut by approx 50%. How does physics calculate for this? Nothing changed but where the fluid pressure is applied.
2. I use your theory of pushing a wheel up my drive way. I increase my strength by 50% making it much easier to push the wheel up the driveway at a faster rate of speed. If your going to use physics as your answer you need to show me some real mathematical theories or formulas to account for the varied losses.
Thoeries are what you discuss in a classroom, b/c they may or may not be true. Reality is a cruel and heartless bitch most of the time. That is what you will find out later in life after you get out of the classrooms. Not to mention all of the BS that was taught to you in college and that you will never use on the job. Atleast that was how it was for me & my freinds with all of the engineering class's we had to take.
1997 Bird,
That is why I asked for a real mathematical formula because no theory or formula exists for the real world explanation as to why when I lock my converter I reduce my drive train loss by 50%. I was waiting for some BS answer from a physics guy with no proof or explanation to validate.
That is why I asked for a real mathematical formula because no theory or formula exists for the real world explanation as to why when I lock my converter I reduce my drive train loss by 50%. I was waiting for some BS answer from a physics guy with no proof or explanation to validate.
Originally Posted by jason99frc
1997 Bird,
That is why I asked for a real mathematical formula because no theory or formula exists for the real world explanation as to why when I lock my converter I reduce my drive train loss by 50%. I was waiting for some BS answer from a physics guy with no proof or explanation to validate.
That is why I asked for a real mathematical formula because no theory or formula exists for the real world explanation as to why when I lock my converter I reduce my drive train loss by 50%. I was waiting for some BS answer from a physics guy with no proof or explanation to validate.
Rarely does 1 guy implement both as most people who live on physics formulas and theories as facts, rarely look outside. Kind of like the hardcore christian bible pounders don't validate other religions with equal proof of their beliefs.
Wow how this could get onto many other different topics. I'm thru.
ONLY 1 WAY TO KNOW, RUN YOUR ENGINE ON AN ENGINE DYNO THEN INSTALL IT IN YOUR CAR AND PUT IT ON THE CHASSIS DYNO.
Wow how this could get onto many other different topics. I'm thru.
ONLY 1 WAY TO KNOW, RUN YOUR ENGINE ON AN ENGINE DYNO THEN INSTALL IT IN YOUR CAR AND PUT IT ON THE CHASSIS DYNO.
jason99frc:
wow dude, u really want a "mathematical formula"? get a fvckin life. sounds like u need to be hanging out with ur friends in the basement of the science building rather than talking about car **** on this forum.
u just ruined this thread for me, go ahead with ur physics **** cuz I'm thru.
wow dude, u really want a "mathematical formula"? get a fvckin life. sounds like u need to be hanging out with ur friends in the basement of the science building rather than talking about car **** on this forum.
u just ruined this thread for me, go ahead with ur physics **** cuz I'm thru.
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From: Taxme, Ohio
Originally Posted by qwikz28
thanks for trying to explain it but i honestly still don't get it. laws of physics as i understand them state you just need to overcome friction once everything is moving. so technically, friction doesn't change so it really shouldn't take more power to do it. eh, oh well. i'm not about to lose sleep over this
For example, the Bugati Veyron can go 150 mph with its first 250 horsepower but it takes the remaining 751 hp to go to the top speed of 252 mph. Your logic is reasonable but it's physics and the dynamics that break the laws of logic; good questions though.
A Google search will get you some math if that's what it takes. Good luck.
Originally Posted by 01Z28M6
No offense intended but the laws of physics you are not getting. It has to do with coefficients and power consumption ramping up to do a greater task. This is exactly how the properties of physics work in all but quantum mechanics.
For example, the Bugati Veyron can go 150 mph with its first 250 horsepower but it takes the remaining 751 hp to go to the top speed of 252 mph. Your logic is reasonable but it's physics and the dynamics that break the laws of logic; good questions though.
A Google search will get you some math if that's what it takes. Good luck.
For example, the Bugati Veyron can go 150 mph with its first 250 horsepower but it takes the remaining 751 hp to go to the top speed of 252 mph. Your logic is reasonable but it's physics and the dynamics that break the laws of logic; good questions though.
A Google search will get you some math if that's what it takes. Good luck.
good thread though. lots of q