TSP 231/237 Cam & Patriot Stage 2 5.3L Heads 440 RWHP!!
08-25-2003, 02:19 PM
#101
Resident Grump
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Walker County Alabama
Posts: 1,050
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: TSP 231/237 Cam & Patriot Stage 2 5.3L Heads 440 RWHP!!
hey jason, absolute speed heads are all dyno'd on independant dynos, jpr is dyno'd on an independant dyno. its just real hard to believe it made 440 when people like heritagels1 couldnt even break 400. no offense heritagels1 but if jason is doing dyno tricks it will just frustrate the hell out of guys like you who cant get that #. i hope yah do but i doubt it.
Jason they are coming out of the woodwork.LOL
A lot of people that spent big money for heads are going to knock your results.
Remember nobody likes to admit they got screwed, especially by a ugly woman.
08-25-2003, 03:12 PM
#102
Re: TSP 231/237 Cam & Patriot Stage 2 5.3L Heads 440 RWHP!! Just to clear things up I am not a patriot hater. I am actually waiting for his 6.0/ls6 heads to be released I am thinking of getting a set. So for anyone to say because I am from NY or have another companys heads at the moment I am jealous or a hater of TSP or Patriot is out of there minds. Anytime someone raises the bar on performance at a reduced price it helps all of us. To me it wasnt the fact that TSP made this much power ( TEA / GTP / Absolute )all have some cars that dyno well. Its that knowbody else has been even close. I like many others will be watching to see how more of these cars turn out with this package. I am more than willing to change anything on my car to increase performance and If I can save money getting good deals from sponsors like TSP and Patriot its even better. When I first ordered my cam The G5-x2 had just came out. The #`s were awsome. I just went with the thunder 230 because there were alot of cars that had been around for a while with terrific dyno #`s and ran good at the track. It turns out the g5-x2 was a great cam and Im sure I would have made even more power with it but at the moment it was released I wasnt willing to take the chance. I have been happy with my choice but I am still searching for more power just like everyone else. Please keep us updated on future cars and dont take offence when first time big #`s from a package are questioned. Everyone gets it. There are 100`s of posts on here saying absolute / TEA heads both suck and LG`s/ Carteks / JPR`s #`s are tricks. Most of us know that most cars do not make the same power even with the exact same setup. But everyone expects to match the best et and dyno that was ever post for that setup. Keep up the good work and have fun with the car at the track
08-26-2003, 10:03 AM
#104
Launching!
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Alongwayfromhome
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: TSP 231/237 Cam & Patriot Stage 2 5.3L Heads 440 RWHP!! "Why is it some people have to act like its impossible for a $1295 head to make good hp? With a cnc machine you only need 1 good port & everyone can have that same good port. How can you beat that deal? No worrying about if you got one of the good sets of heads, everyone has the good set of heads."
A-FRIGGIN-MEN BROTHER! Preach it!
I've been saying this for YEARS. If someone is spending a lot of time working the head by hand AFTER the CNC process - THEY SCREWED UP THE PROGRAM IN THE FIRST PLACE.
Properly fixtured and set up, the right CNC machines can give repeatability on the order of +/-.0005". Doubters, you could'nt visually see a difference of .001" if YOUR LIFE DEPENDED ON IT. Furthermore, you better be ready to shell out BIG MONEY for a CMM if you want to measure that accurately, because unless your hand tools are perfectly calibrated THEY AREN'T THAT ACCURATE.
Now, someone explain to me, REALLY SLOWLY, why ANYONE would want to go aned do all but the most MINOR retouching on a head after the CNC process. If you have to, go buy or lease a modern 6-axis Cincinnati machine and skip this step entirely.
Now, I can understand if cost pressures preclude the money and investment in the tools, fixturing, machine and programming and someone elects to do it by hand, but ANYONE charging $2,000 for a set of Stage 2 CNC heads is giving folks a raping.
PS - I do this crap (design and engineer parts) for a living in the automotive industry, and get ground-up CNC programs and parts sourced regularly. If HALF of you knew what I could source a ground up part for with local prototype shops you'd choke.
A-FRIGGIN-MEN BROTHER! Preach it!
I've been saying this for YEARS. If someone is spending a lot of time working the head by hand AFTER the CNC process - THEY SCREWED UP THE PROGRAM IN THE FIRST PLACE.
Properly fixtured and set up, the right CNC machines can give repeatability on the order of +/-.0005". Doubters, you could'nt visually see a difference of .001" if YOUR LIFE DEPENDED ON IT. Furthermore, you better be ready to shell out BIG MONEY for a CMM if you want to measure that accurately, because unless your hand tools are perfectly calibrated THEY AREN'T THAT ACCURATE.
Now, someone explain to me, REALLY SLOWLY, why ANYONE would want to go aned do all but the most MINOR retouching on a head after the CNC process. If you have to, go buy or lease a modern 6-axis Cincinnati machine and skip this step entirely.
Now, I can understand if cost pressures preclude the money and investment in the tools, fixturing, machine and programming and someone elects to do it by hand, but ANYONE charging $2,000 for a set of Stage 2 CNC heads is giving folks a raping.
PS - I do this crap (design and engineer parts) for a living in the automotive industry, and get ground-up CNC programs and parts sourced regularly. If HALF of you knew what I could source a ground up part for with local prototype shops you'd choke.
08-26-2003, 02:56 PM
#106
On The Tree
Join Date: May 2003
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 145
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: TSP 231/237 Cam & Patriot Stage 2 5.3L Heads 440 RWHP!!
hey jason, absolute speed heads are all dyno'd on independant dynos, jpr is dyno'd on an independant dyno. its just real hard to believe it made 440 when people like heritagels1 couldnt even break 400. no offense heritagels1 but if jason is doing dyno tricks it will just frustrate the hell out of guys like you who cant get that #. i hope yah do but i doubt it.
08-26-2003, 07:27 PM
#107
Launching!
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Alongwayfromhome
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: TSP 231/237 Cam & Patriot Stage 2 5.3L Heads 440 RWHP!!
I agree!I only hand blend in the valve job when the heads come off the CNC machine.
Keep up the good work. As you can tell, the world is just friggin CHOCK-FULL of ignorance.
I'll bet ya a dozen doughnuts 95% of the CNC haters have never even seen a machine.
I got a guitar body cut out once on a big Cincinnati (the FINEST guitars in the world are cut on CNC mills), the guy doing the program came up to me and said:
Him: "Dan, I'm a little worried that the surface finish won't be good enough."
Me: "Why's that?"
Him: "Well, because of the cutter we are using, there are going to be .004" ridges on the surface."
Me: "John, it's wood - mahogany. I can knock off .004" ridges with finish sandpaper in about 30 seconds."
He's worried about .004" ridges... holy buckets.
PS - Might be giving you a call soon. Need heads and cam and such for a show car for my company.
08-26-2003, 07:45 PM
#108
TECH Fanatic
Re: TSP 231/237 Cam & Patriot Stage 2 5.3L Heads 440 RWHP!! PacerX,
The best thing about is the CNC Machine does not care wether it is Monday morning or Friday afternoon its always the same.I have been programming and working with CNC for over 13 years.Every port is the same every time.thanks
The best thing about is the CNC Machine does not care wether it is Monday morning or Friday afternoon its always the same.I have been programming and working with CNC for over 13 years.Every port is the same every time.thanks
08-26-2003, 11:43 PM
#109
6600 rpm clutch dump of death Administrator
Re: TSP 231/237 Cam & Patriot Stage 2 5.3L Heads 440 RWHP!! CNC allows repeatability. The only issues you see is when someone has setup their CNC on a production machine and have the resolution turned way down. A set of GMPP CNC heads as an example. They are rough, and require finishing to eliminate potential hot spots.
But, on one of those mac daddy 6-axis jobs you can set your resolution as fine as you want and not even leave a tool mark if you don't want too. But some quick touch up work is mostly the rule as you have to draw the line somewhere on speed vs perfection.
Now as anyone who understand the CNC process can see this is a great way to get your heads where they need to be. You will find many of the big shops use CNC heads to get their heads 95% of the way there, and the the guys get ahold of them and finish up the hand work.
This saves your porter tons of time, and makes things more efficent. Now, one thing I will say and I want it understood that this is not aimed a Patriot. But just because you have a port, and you can make a million copies of it doesn't always mean its right. You can replicate a bad port just as easily as a good port, and thats where the human side of itcomes into play. Only someone who knows can get you that "perfect port". So that you can make a model of it.
Let me cite a recent example.
Here was a very interesting bit of info that I came across. Just like a dyno, even flow bench results can be skewed. I am not going to name the two heads that were tested, as I am not interested in get into a peeing match with shops about their heads or a he said, she said argument. This information is being posted as that, information. Use information like this to educate yourself, and make informed decisions.
For the purpose of this test I will refer to the same vendors a Brand X and Brand Y.
In a test of Brand X heads vs Brand Y heads. Brand Y flows as well on the bench (as good as a Brand X), but don't seem to make the same power on the dyno,etc. From discussing it with the head porter, he was mentioning that Brand Y removes material in areas that will show a gain on the flow bench, but will not make anymore power on the dyno. He says they are big in the wrong spots and too small in others.
A set of Brand Y stage 2s 5.3l heads on a car that had all the bolt ons and a TR224 cam. It made 379/370 or so before adding the heads. After the heads, the car did 413/385 after tuning. A week before, Another car had a set of Brand X stage 2 5.3l heads on a car that already had the TR224 cam as well and the IDENTICAL mods as the other Brand Y car (FLPs, LS6 intake, ASP, stock rear/4:10s,etc). Both dynoed the exact same before swapping heads on (the curves practically overlayed oneanother). This car pulled 443/418 with the Brand Xs!
On the flow bench, the Brand Ys actually flowed better from .100-.550, while Brand X flowed slightly better past this. Same thing on the exhaust side. This just goes to show that a flow bench is an excellent tool, but not something that should be used as the determing factor in how a head will perform when put on a motor. The CC volumes were identical on the two heads, so compression difference wasn't an issue.
Just like anything else, there are dyno queens, there are flowbench queens. Don't let anyone sell you based simply on numbers. Don't let the fact that Patriots only cost $1295 discourage you that there has to be something wrong. If you have a good port design inthe CNC machine it can create the same heads every time without fail. The one thing you need though is the guy to develop the port in the first place. That is why htere will always be a need for guys like Craig Gallant and many others who know what to grind, but where...
Hats off to you guys on some very impressive numbers.
But, on one of those mac daddy 6-axis jobs you can set your resolution as fine as you want and not even leave a tool mark if you don't want too. But some quick touch up work is mostly the rule as you have to draw the line somewhere on speed vs perfection.
Now as anyone who understand the CNC process can see this is a great way to get your heads where they need to be. You will find many of the big shops use CNC heads to get their heads 95% of the way there, and the the guys get ahold of them and finish up the hand work.
This saves your porter tons of time, and makes things more efficent. Now, one thing I will say and I want it understood that this is not aimed a Patriot. But just because you have a port, and you can make a million copies of it doesn't always mean its right. You can replicate a bad port just as easily as a good port, and thats where the human side of itcomes into play. Only someone who knows can get you that "perfect port". So that you can make a model of it.
Let me cite a recent example.
Here was a very interesting bit of info that I came across. Just like a dyno, even flow bench results can be skewed. I am not going to name the two heads that were tested, as I am not interested in get into a peeing match with shops about their heads or a he said, she said argument. This information is being posted as that, information. Use information like this to educate yourself, and make informed decisions.
For the purpose of this test I will refer to the same vendors a Brand X and Brand Y.
In a test of Brand X heads vs Brand Y heads. Brand Y flows as well on the bench (as good as a Brand X), but don't seem to make the same power on the dyno,etc. From discussing it with the head porter, he was mentioning that Brand Y removes material in areas that will show a gain on the flow bench, but will not make anymore power on the dyno. He says they are big in the wrong spots and too small in others.
A set of Brand Y stage 2s 5.3l heads on a car that had all the bolt ons and a TR224 cam. It made 379/370 or so before adding the heads. After the heads, the car did 413/385 after tuning. A week before, Another car had a set of Brand X stage 2 5.3l heads on a car that already had the TR224 cam as well and the IDENTICAL mods as the other Brand Y car (FLPs, LS6 intake, ASP, stock rear/4:10s,etc). Both dynoed the exact same before swapping heads on (the curves practically overlayed oneanother). This car pulled 443/418 with the Brand Xs!
On the flow bench, the Brand Ys actually flowed better from .100-.550, while Brand X flowed slightly better past this. Same thing on the exhaust side. This just goes to show that a flow bench is an excellent tool, but not something that should be used as the determing factor in how a head will perform when put on a motor. The CC volumes were identical on the two heads, so compression difference wasn't an issue.
Just like anything else, there are dyno queens, there are flowbench queens. Don't let anyone sell you based simply on numbers. Don't let the fact that Patriots only cost $1295 discourage you that there has to be something wrong. If you have a good port design inthe CNC machine it can create the same heads every time without fail. The one thing you need though is the guy to develop the port in the first place. That is why htere will always be a need for guys like Craig Gallant and many others who know what to grind, but where...
Hats off to you guys on some very impressive numbers.
08-27-2003, 12:10 PM
#110
12 Second Club
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Midland, Tx
Posts: 621
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: TSP 231/237 Cam & Patriot Stage 2 5.3L Heads 440 RWHP!!
CNC allows repeatability. The only issues you see is when someone has setup their CNC on a production machine and have the resolution turned way down. A set of GMPP CNC heads as an example. They are rough, and require finishing to eliminate potential hot spots.
But, on one of those mac daddy 6-axis jobs you can set your resolution as fine as you want and not even leave a tool mark if you don't want too. But some quick touch up work is mostly the rule as you have to draw the line somewhere on speed vs perfection.
Now as anyone who understand the CNC process can see this is a great way to get your heads where they need to be. You will find many of the big shops use CNC heads to get their heads 95% of the way there, and the the guys get ahold of them and finish up the hand work.
This saves your porter tons of time, and makes things more efficent. Now, one thing I will say and I want it understood that this is not aimed a Patriot. But just because you have a port, and you can make a million copies of it doesn't always mean its right. You can replicate a bad port just as easily as a good port, and thats where the human side of itcomes into play. Only someone who knows can get you that "perfect port". So that you can make a model of it.
Let me cite a recent example.
Here was a very interesting bit of info that I came across. Just like a dyno, even flow bench results can be skewed. I am not going to name the two heads that were tested, as I am not interested in get into a peeing match with shops about their heads or a he said, she said argument. This information is being posted as that, information. Use information like this to educate yourself, and make informed decisions.
For the purpose of this test I will refer to the same vendors a Brand X and Brand Y.
In a test of Brand X heads vs Brand Y heads. Brand Y flows as well on the bench (as good as a Brand X), but don't seem to make the same power on the dyno,etc. From discussing it with the head porter, he was mentioning that Brand Y removes material in areas that will show a gain on the flow bench, but will not make anymore power on the dyno. He says they are big in the wrong spots and too small in others.
A set of Brand Y stage 2s 5.3l heads on a car that had all the bolt ons and a TR224 cam. It made 379/370 or so before adding the heads. After the heads, the car did 413/385 after tuning. A week before, Another car had a set of Brand X stage 2 5.3l heads on a car that already had the TR224 cam as well and the IDENTICAL mods as the other Brand Y car (FLPs, LS6 intake, ASP, stock rear/4:10s,etc). Both dynoed the exact same before swapping heads on (the curves practically overlayed oneanother). This car pulled 443/418 with the Brand Xs!
On the flow bench, the Brand Ys actually flowed better from .100-.550, while Brand X flowed slightly better past this. Same thing on the exhaust side. This just goes to show that a flow bench is an excellent tool, but not something that should be used as the determing factor in how a head will perform when put on a motor. The CC volumes were identical on the two heads, so compression difference wasn't an issue.
Just like anything else, there are dyno queens, there are flowbench queens. Don't let anyone sell you based simply on numbers. Don't let the fact that Patriots only cost $1295 discourage you that there has to be something wrong. If you have a good port design inthe CNC machine it can create the same heads every time without fail. The one thing you need though is the guy to develop the port in the first place. That is why htere will always be a need for guys like Craig Gallant and many others who know what to grind, but where...
Hats off to you guys on some very impressive numbers.
But, on one of those mac daddy 6-axis jobs you can set your resolution as fine as you want and not even leave a tool mark if you don't want too. But some quick touch up work is mostly the rule as you have to draw the line somewhere on speed vs perfection.
Now as anyone who understand the CNC process can see this is a great way to get your heads where they need to be. You will find many of the big shops use CNC heads to get their heads 95% of the way there, and the the guys get ahold of them and finish up the hand work.
This saves your porter tons of time, and makes things more efficent. Now, one thing I will say and I want it understood that this is not aimed a Patriot. But just because you have a port, and you can make a million copies of it doesn't always mean its right. You can replicate a bad port just as easily as a good port, and thats where the human side of itcomes into play. Only someone who knows can get you that "perfect port". So that you can make a model of it.
Let me cite a recent example.
Here was a very interesting bit of info that I came across. Just like a dyno, even flow bench results can be skewed. I am not going to name the two heads that were tested, as I am not interested in get into a peeing match with shops about their heads or a he said, she said argument. This information is being posted as that, information. Use information like this to educate yourself, and make informed decisions.
For the purpose of this test I will refer to the same vendors a Brand X and Brand Y.
In a test of Brand X heads vs Brand Y heads. Brand Y flows as well on the bench (as good as a Brand X), but don't seem to make the same power on the dyno,etc. From discussing it with the head porter, he was mentioning that Brand Y removes material in areas that will show a gain on the flow bench, but will not make anymore power on the dyno. He says they are big in the wrong spots and too small in others.
A set of Brand Y stage 2s 5.3l heads on a car that had all the bolt ons and a TR224 cam. It made 379/370 or so before adding the heads. After the heads, the car did 413/385 after tuning. A week before, Another car had a set of Brand X stage 2 5.3l heads on a car that already had the TR224 cam as well and the IDENTICAL mods as the other Brand Y car (FLPs, LS6 intake, ASP, stock rear/4:10s,etc). Both dynoed the exact same before swapping heads on (the curves practically overlayed oneanother). This car pulled 443/418 with the Brand Xs!
On the flow bench, the Brand Ys actually flowed better from .100-.550, while Brand X flowed slightly better past this. Same thing on the exhaust side. This just goes to show that a flow bench is an excellent tool, but not something that should be used as the determing factor in how a head will perform when put on a motor. The CC volumes were identical on the two heads, so compression difference wasn't an issue.
Just like anything else, there are dyno queens, there are flowbench queens. Don't let anyone sell you based simply on numbers. Don't let the fact that Patriots only cost $1295 discourage you that there has to be something wrong. If you have a good port design inthe CNC machine it can create the same heads every time without fail. The one thing you need though is the guy to develop the port in the first place. That is why htere will always be a need for guys like Craig Gallant and many others who know what to grind, but where...
Hats off to you guys on some very impressive numbers.
08-27-2003, 11:51 PM
#112
Staging Lane
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Pflugerville, TX
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: TSP 231/237 Cam & Patriot Stage 2 5.3L Heads 440 RWHP!! One more thing to add about CNC ported heads. I know of one engine builder for NASCAR that produces their heads totally on a CNC machine(s). They start with solid piece of billet and CNC cut all of the the water jackets and everything. They do this so the have total control over every part of the head. They can also guarantee that each head is the same. After a head is completed through their CNC process they then hand finish them to get max. performace. I only wish I had the cash to have them do a set of heads for my Z.
08-28-2003, 04:51 PM
#113
TECH Addict
iTrader: (9)
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Texas, it's like your state, but better.
Posts: 2,085
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: TSP 231/237 Cam & Patriot Stage 2 5.3L Heads 440 RWHP!! originally posted by PacerX
LOL!!!
man i like the way this guy thinks... common sense folks seriously!
i tend not to post in these threads just for this specific reason. dont care much for this "my heads are better than your heads" sponsor competition BS game. some folks do, but thats not my cup of tea.
i apologise for the topic change, dont mind me.. post away..
Terry,
Keep up the good work. As you can tell, the world is just friggin CHOCK-FULL of ignorance.
Keep up the good work. As you can tell, the world is just friggin CHOCK-FULL of ignorance.
LOL!!!
man i like the way this guy thinks... common sense folks seriously!
i tend not to post in these threads just for this specific reason. dont care much for this "my heads are better than your heads" sponsor competition BS game. some folks do, but thats not my cup of tea.
i apologise for the topic change, dont mind me.. post away..
08-28-2003, 07:40 PM
#114
Re: TSP 231/237 Cam & Patriot Stage 2 5.3L Heads 440 RWHP!! I guess it's good to have some of these "premier" head porters still around if you don't mind waiting 6-10 months for your final product. A lot of these guys cater to race teams and forget all about you. Just my .02 from my friends experience.
08-28-2003, 08:42 PM
#115
Re: TSP 231/237 Cam & Patriot Stage 2 5.3L Heads 440 RWHP!! originally posted by PacerX
LOL!!!
man i like the way this guy thinks... common sense folks seriously!
i tend not to post in these threads just for this specific reason. dont care much for this "my heads are better than your heads" sponsor competition BS game. some folks do, but thats not my cup of tea.
i apologise for the topic change, dont mind me.. post away..
Terry,
Keep up the good work. As you can tell, the world is just friggin CHOCK-FULL of ignorance.
Keep up the good work. As you can tell, the world is just friggin CHOCK-FULL of ignorance.
LOL!!!
man i like the way this guy thinks... common sense folks seriously!
i tend not to post in these threads just for this specific reason. dont care much for this "my heads are better than your heads" sponsor competition BS game. some folks do, but thats not my cup of tea.
i apologise for the topic change, dont mind me.. post away..
08-29-2003, 12:07 AM
#116
Launching!
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Wichita Falls, Texas
Posts: 244
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: TSP 231/237 Cam & Patriot Stage 2 5.3L Heads 440 RWHP!! Damn, IF.... I could just get my CNC'd made F-16 hand finished maybe I'd get another couple of knots out of it. :p
TSP!
TSP! 