The real cost of HP
Labor for car mods is no different than labor for home improvements or maintenance.
Something simple like adding a 220 breaker and running a line to the garage will cost you ~$100 in materials for a 50' run. You'll pay upwards of $300 or more to have an electrician come in and do it.
Labor is a huge part of anthing you buy. Consider the cost to build a new home is usually 25% materials and 75% labor, again varies depending on what is built.
I feel bad for the original poster, as after the failed first attempt I would have scrapped the entire project or else I'd be living in the streets and single. But having kids has shown me that free time is a much more expensive commodity than it use to be.
Something simple like adding a 220 breaker and running a line to the garage will cost you ~$100 in materials for a 50' run. You'll pay upwards of $300 or more to have an electrician come in and do it.
Labor is a huge part of anthing you buy. Consider the cost to build a new home is usually 25% materials and 75% labor, again varies depending on what is built.
I feel bad for the original poster, as after the failed first attempt I would have scrapped the entire project or else I'd be living in the streets and single. But having kids has shown me that free time is a much more expensive commodity than it use to be.
Labor may be expensive, but you have to consider what you are paying for. Knowledge, expertise, tools and equipment, etc. Its a long list.
BTW, sorry to the OP, but it usually happens that way. Try to cheap out and it ends up costing you more in the long run. Same way with cheap parts too.
Sorry, dont mean to throw salt in a wound.
BTW, sorry to the OP, but it usually happens that way. Try to cheap out and it ends up costing you more in the long run. Same way with cheap parts too.
Sorry, dont mean to throw salt in a wound.
Tools, dont' get me started. I tried to figure out what I have bought in toold in the last 5 years the other day, mainly because my toolbox is full and I need the center section, and some cabinets to put other things in...... the $ in tools alone is disturbing.
I would think I have somewhere around 80-100K in tools, not to mention shop equipment like lifts, dyno, compressor, press, AC machine, etc. Then theres software, office equipment, computers. Hell my ALLDATA subscription costs 2700 bucks a year.
Sorry for the hijack.
Paying for labor from a competent Mechanic is worth every penny on a job that is over your head.
I'm a DIY kinda guy, but some things are better left to the experts and the guys with the right tools.
Personally my comment about paying for labor was generalized, he had to pay for labor multiple times for the same job and that sucks.
I'm a DIY kinda guy, but some things are better left to the experts and the guys with the right tools.
Personally my comment about paying for labor was generalized, he had to pay for labor multiple times for the same job and that sucks.
Trust me, I've worked as a mechanic for years, I know why labor costs so much. That being said, Pewter said it best, the amount of money you can save doing it yourself is insane. Now if you don't have the know-how and you screw it up, then you just cost yourself that much more, so be very sure before you take on a job. I was more making an observation, not complaining about the cost of good labor.
What sucks about the labor situation of this whole nightmare, os paying for it 3 times, and only having it get done right once. That's the part that is a 
At the end of the day, putting that motor in the truck, with the same whipple on it that was being used probably would have been a sound plan, and would have certainly netted results that are very close to where it's at now.
At the end of the day, putting that motor in the truck, with the same whipple on it that was being used probably would have been a sound plan, and would have certainly netted results that are very close to where it's at now.
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While I understand what you are saying about costing a ton of money because he may have tried to go with the cheapest quote and got screwed, you're wrong if you think even basic labor bills aren't insane. Being a sponsor who gets paid to do labor, obviously you're going to argue that it's not that bad, but when half the time the labor to install/tune a part is pretty much the same price as the part itself or more (which is true in many cases, though not all), that's insane.
For example, let's say I buy a cam package with springs and rods for my Z28. I can get one from from many places for $600-700. It would then cost me $500-600 or so at most places for the install and another $400 for the tune. $900-1000 to install/tune a $600-700 package. That's insane. And even without the tune, it costs about the same amount for the install itself as it does for the parts.
Obviously everyone can't do their own work, but I think ScreaminRedZ was just trying to point out that the amount of money you can save doing the work yourself is, indeed, INSANE.
For example, let's say I buy a cam package with springs and rods for my Z28. I can get one from from many places for $600-700. It would then cost me $500-600 or so at most places for the install and another $400 for the tune. $900-1000 to install/tune a $600-700 package. That's insane. And even without the tune, it costs about the same amount for the install itself as it does for the parts.
Obviously everyone can't do their own work, but I think ScreaminRedZ was just trying to point out that the amount of money you can save doing the work yourself is, indeed, INSANE.
Now,take Dans truck.A simler job we did cost about $35k with the 408ci,Turbo,fuel, ect.No problems with it and made 660hp at 8lbs of boost with a ton left. On Dans bill from us that is not all Labor.I bet $2-$3k was parts and on top of that I probly ate 30+hr's of labor.Then Dan took the whole kit off and couldn't put it back on.That is when it went to W2W and they did exactly what we did.In the end it didn't work like we ran into.Then it looks like they changed the whole harness(which is what we wanted to do but got blocked).So,all in all he probly would of saved the 2nd $6k labor charge.
This stuff adds up and the worst customer to work with is one that is cheap because it makes you cut corners.
Last edited by Slowhawk; Apr 15, 2008 at 11:37 AM.
I stand being my previous statement 100%, but I will say that through my own experience and talking with others there are definitely some shops that overcharge in the sense that the actual price far exceeds the estimate consistently without anything going wrong to warrant the unexpected hike in price. That's the beauty of capitalism though. I can choose where I want to go, and spend my money with the shops that I feel I'm getting my money's worth from.
There are definately shops that overcharge for labor, but when your talking about building a 600+ HP car that will last you cant go cheap or you will pay in the end. I agree that a good portion of a quote for a custom build is labor, but if you go to a reputable shop that stands behind their work your also getting a warranty and a gaurantee that the finished product will be in perfect working order. Lets say you decide to build a 600+ rwhp 408 turbo setup yourself in your garage and you screw it up or mess up the inital tune and blow apart then engine, guess what your SOL. Im all for doing a project yourself and if you have the time, patience, tools, and know how to create such a build as Dan was going for then thats quite impressive to say the least, but most guys, myself including, dont have the time or the know how to do so and when your investing that much money into a build without the background to put everything together properly why take that chance? JMO.
Excellent points. Nothing better than a shop that stands behind their work or a parts manufacturer that stands behind their product. And while I may have the opinion that a shop charged too much for a certain job, that's just my opinion. Someone else may think it was a great deal.
I understand why labor costs so much; I wasn't arguing that the costs weren't legitimate (and I understand that labor costs a lot in life in general, not just on cars), I was just simply stating that regardless of how legitimate the charges are, labor charges are, indeed, INSANE.
I also understand that most people cannot take on major projects like the one in the OP; I was just supporting the statement made by ScreaminRedZ that one can save a ton of money by doing whatever work they can themselves.
I also understand that most people cannot take on major projects like the one in the OP; I was just supporting the statement made by ScreaminRedZ that one can save a ton of money by doing whatever work they can themselves.
I understand why labor costs so much; I wasn't arguing that the costs weren't legitimate (and I understand that labor costs a lot in life in general, not just on cars), I was just simply stating that regardless of how legitimate the charges are, labor charges are, indeed, INSANE.
I also understand that most people cannot take on major projects like the one in the OP; I was just supporting the statement made by ScreaminRedZ that one can save a ton of money by doing whatever work they can themselves.
I also understand that most people cannot take on major projects like the one in the OP; I was just supporting the statement made by ScreaminRedZ that one can save a ton of money by doing whatever work they can themselves.
Right but that can be said about any industry/service. I mean look at what they charge to prepare taxes. Most tax preparers charge hundreds of dollars to do your taxes and quite a few, IMO, do a crappy job. I looked over my girlfriend's parents taxes that were filed by a "Tax Professional" and they were basically an E-File generic form that didnt account for anything that they should have been credited for. Same can be said for my job. Im a Senior Financial Analyst for Fidelity and we bill internally for any analytical reports, financial models/metrics, etc done for the groups we support and IMO its probably more than what its worth, but its the fact that they dont want to do it so they allow us to do it and we, in turn, can bill what is deeemed appropriate. People pay for stuff they do not want to do, have time to do, or have the knowledge to do. Do I think electricians, plumbers, mechanics, etc should be able to charge $75-$100+ an hour? No but then again I dont know what their costs are nor do I know the industry and I dont have the time or knowledge to do it myself so I pay the going rate. Not trying to turn this into a huge arguement, I just dont think its fair to single out one service, such as labor for performance mods, when every industry does the same.
Trust me, I can only get away with either buying parts or paying labor to have them installed, but not both, so I chose to do the work myself and learn along the way.
Case in point, I need to have my pistons flycut which is something that I'm not 100% comfortable with, but am sure I could do with a little asisstance. So I may pull the top end and truck it somewhere and just pay to have the pistons flycut, then I'll put it back together myself.
Case in point, I need to have my pistons flycut which is something that I'm not 100% comfortable with, but am sure I could do with a little asisstance. So I may pull the top end and truck it somewhere and just pay to have the pistons flycut, then I'll put it back together myself.
You'd probably have a low 12 second car with a really nice roll cage. 
The cost of labor for auto repair is incredibly high but I wouldn't say it's unreasonable because the overhead is enormous, as the sponsors have pointed out. I used to think $75/hour was high for a shop (not talking about performance work obviously, just general repair), now that's about typical, some chains get $80-90/hour. And then there is the markup on parts. I'm sure they would tell you if you don't like our rates do it yourself, which is exactly what I do. Since I started doing most of my own work I figure I've saved well over a grand, maybe closer to 2K. I'm putting all new shocks and rear springs on my DD, probably saving about $500-700 in labor and parts. That's one reason I never think twice about spending money on tools, they pay for themselves many times over.
The cost of labor for auto repair is incredibly high but I wouldn't say it's unreasonable because the overhead is enormous, as the sponsors have pointed out. I used to think $75/hour was high for a shop (not talking about performance work obviously, just general repair), now that's about typical, some chains get $80-90/hour. And then there is the markup on parts. I'm sure they would tell you if you don't like our rates do it yourself, which is exactly what I do. Since I started doing most of my own work I figure I've saved well over a grand, maybe closer to 2K. I'm putting all new shocks and rear springs on my DD, probably saving about $500-700 in labor and parts. That's one reason I never think twice about spending money on tools, they pay for themselves many times over.
all i know is that in all the money I have spent on my truck over the past 6 years (which is probably over 70K when you add everything up through all the different combos), I know the best money I spent was on labor. I am not a mechanic, nor do I want to pretend like I am one. I run a business and deal with employees and customers all day. I know that is what I can do, I am good at it, and it makes me money. I feel very confident in the people that do the work on my truck and I know that it costs me more money to pay them to do the work, but at least I can enjoy it and know that it was done right......the first time
So when are you going to take it to NED ?
Looking forward to seeing it run.
Oh, if it were me I'd throw a couple more degrees of timing at it
aka never met a head gasket I didn't want to
Good luck
Looking forward to seeing it run.
Oh, if it were me I'd throw a couple more degrees of timing at it
aka never met a head gasket I didn't want to
Good luck
wow, this thread took an interesting turn.
What's done is done. I'm not hating on anyone other than the original shop. It's not worth getting into a pissing contest about when the problems started and whether shop A, B or C should have fixed them. Clearly nobody who touched it could truly fix it which is why we scrapped it eventually.
Live and learn. I made multiple poor decisions over the past several years. The best thing I could have done was to have left the truck at SDCE 2 years ago. BUT, because of that douche in NY in my ear lying and deceiving me, this is the result.
I'm sure we all have things in our lives where we could say, if I could only go back to that day. Early May 2006 was mine. Biggest mistake of my life to date.
I'm done with this thread. someone lock it please!!!!
What's done is done. I'm not hating on anyone other than the original shop. It's not worth getting into a pissing contest about when the problems started and whether shop A, B or C should have fixed them. Clearly nobody who touched it could truly fix it which is why we scrapped it eventually.
Live and learn. I made multiple poor decisions over the past several years. The best thing I could have done was to have left the truck at SDCE 2 years ago. BUT, because of that douche in NY in my ear lying and deceiving me, this is the result.
I'm sure we all have things in our lives where we could say, if I could only go back to that day. Early May 2006 was mine. Biggest mistake of my life to date.
I'm done with this thread. someone lock it please!!!!