A2W on street car?
12-09-2008, 10:47 PM
#21
I had a 9 gallon water tank....and it will get very hot....atw is only better if you can change the water and ice it between every or maybe a couple runs....I.E....good for the strip... not a street car. Also ata is way less piping to deal with...don't be fooled.
12-09-2008, 11:01 PM
#22
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The only way I'd consider running an a2w set-up for the street is if I had no room for a good a2a. Liquid systems are too damn complicated to make work properly for street use and weigh a ton after the entire system is put together. With the good a2a cores available these days there is no need to consider an a2w. If it was a drag car than my opinions would be a bit different.
12-10-2008, 06:05 AM
#23
Thanks Ron, Ill try and call you today.
Otherwhitemeat, Thanks for the personal experience with both. Your case was exactly what I was afraid of. The A2W absorbs all the BTU very effectively but has no way to dissipate it. what RWHP are you puting down.
Otherwhitemeat, Thanks for the personal experience with both. Your case was exactly what I was afraid of. The A2W absorbs all the BTU very effectively but has no way to dissipate it. what RWHP are you puting down.
12-10-2008, 08:35 AM
#24
1100wrhp with the ATA.....and I never dynoed the ATW..
12-10-2008, 09:12 AM
#25
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Exactly. We tried this on a Talon a while back and it sounds like we had similar results as "otherwhitemeat". A big reservoir helps a lot but is only a band-aid. If you drove around without getting into boost at all it was fine. But even getting into a little bit, say 5lbs, would put heat into the water pretty quick. To do it right you need a pretty big heat exchanger and it just becomes a PITA.
12-10-2008, 09:30 AM
#26
9 Second Club
Ray,
The simple fact of life will be that you'll be down to making one pass every 20-30 minutes on an average day at Norwalk. Turning around faster then that means not running at max power and what's the point of that?
A2W will allow you to bleed everything you can possible squeeze out of it at the track on a given day and A2A can not compete at the track.
A properly setup A2W systems has a heat exchanger after the intercooler that will cool the water as it returns to the tank. That heat exchanger will typically have a high speed fan that can move air over so it's not dependent on the car being in motion. The pump and heat exchanger fan should be on separate switches so you can choose to activate them as need. It doesn't take long to return the water back to near ambient air temp for street use.
I have never found myself wishing that I had A2A on the street and I doubt MM has either even though he has the most street time in this thread. I'd be willing to bet though some of the A2A guys would have liked to have had A2W though at the track when those last few tenths were on the line for their first 8s or 9s pass.
A properly sized A2W will cost more money than A2A but like everything else, you get what you pay for and in this case... that's a lower ET and a higher MPH with A2W.
In the end, you can't go wrong with either as long as it's sized for your goals and that turbo has plenty of room for some really nice goals. Don't forget that a good meth kit can help out as well with the perceived weaknesses of either cooling option.
Rick
The simple fact of life will be that you'll be down to making one pass every 20-30 minutes on an average day at Norwalk. Turning around faster then that means not running at max power and what's the point of that?
A2W will allow you to bleed everything you can possible squeeze out of it at the track on a given day and A2A can not compete at the track.A properly setup A2W systems has a heat exchanger after the intercooler that will cool the water as it returns to the tank. That heat exchanger will typically have a high speed fan that can move air over so it's not dependent on the car being in motion. The pump and heat exchanger fan should be on separate switches so you can choose to activate them as need. It doesn't take long to return the water back to near ambient air temp for street use.
I have never found myself wishing that I had A2A on the street and I doubt MM has either even though he has the most street time in this thread. I'd be willing to bet though some of the A2A guys would have liked to have had A2W though at the track when those last few tenths were on the line for their first 8s or 9s pass.
A properly sized A2W will cost more money than A2A but like everything else, you get what you pay for and in this case... that's a lower ET and a higher MPH with A2W.
In the end, you can't go wrong with either as long as it's sized for your goals and that turbo has plenty of room for some really nice goals. Don't forget that a good meth kit can help out as well with the perceived weaknesses of either cooling option.
Rick
12-10-2008, 09:49 AM
#27
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All the A/W leg humpers should read this http://www.bellintercoolers.com/page...FAQ.html#FAQ_5
By the time you have designed an A/W system for extended use to the point that it approaches a properly setup A/A system, you have invested way more money to only be ~90% as the A/A design.
However, having room for a properly set up system is another issue all together...as is a cooling application for drag racing purposes. A/W all the way if drag racing is your main focus.
By the time you have designed an A/W system for extended use to the point that it approaches a properly setup A/A system, you have invested way more money to only be ~90% as the A/A design.
However, having room for a properly set up system is another issue all together...as is a cooling application for drag racing purposes. A/W all the way if drag racing is your main focus.
Last edited by 1.8t; 12-10-2008 at 10:05 AM.
12-10-2008, 10:10 AM
#28
9 Second Club
A Talon is a little bit tougher because of the tight spaces involved. Once an F-body guy concedes that they don't need AC and moves the battery back to the trunk, space becomes available for better combos relative to the power being discussed. Toss in Meth and life gets even better.
In my case, tuning on the freeway at 15-20lbs of boost is not a problem with a 2.5 gallon tank, a small heat exchanger and a 900hp rated IC that comes with a TTi race kit. The whole A2W setup is under the hood.
The guys at TTi have done a good job of sizing the A2W combo for their kit which took the guess work out of it for us.
That A2W combo has been good enough for me to run back to back 9.4x passes at 148mph, with one tank of ice and a 20 minute turn around on a 75 degree day. MM added more capacity so I think he is up to 5 gallons with his back seat tank and that's a street car that runs 8.7s at 159mph with the same IC and heat exchanger. Both of these cars are over 3,700lbs so they make some decent power.
It's awefully tough to make direct comparisons because of the number of variables (cooling capacity of a kit, fuel used, meth?, temps for ambient and final IAT at a pass mph, DA and so on) involved but hopefully this helps show our real world experience so that others can see what's possible with a properly spec'd setup.
Rick
In my case, tuning on the freeway at 15-20lbs of boost is not a problem with a 2.5 gallon tank, a small heat exchanger and a 900hp rated IC that comes with a TTi race kit. The whole A2W setup is under the hood.
The guys at TTi have done a good job of sizing the A2W combo for their kit which took the guess work out of it for us.
That A2W combo has been good enough for me to run back to back 9.4x passes at 148mph, with one tank of ice and a 20 minute turn around on a 75 degree day. MM added more capacity so I think he is up to 5 gallons with his back seat tank and that's a street car that runs 8.7s at 159mph with the same IC and heat exchanger. Both of these cars are over 3,700lbs so they make some decent power.
It's awefully tough to make direct comparisons because of the number of variables (cooling capacity of a kit, fuel used, meth?, temps for ambient and final IAT at a pass mph, DA and so on) involved but hopefully this helps show our real world experience so that others can see what's possible with a properly spec'd setup.
Rick
12-10-2008, 10:11 AM
#29
9 Second Club
All the A/W leg humpers should read this http://www.bellintercoolers.com/page...FAQ.html#FAQ_5
By the time you have designed an A/W system for extended use to the point that it approaches a properly setup A/A system, you have invested way more money to only be ~90% as the A/A design.
However, having room for a properly set up system is another issue all together...as is a cooling application for drag racing purposes. A/W all the way if drag racing is your main focus.
By the time you have designed an A/W system for extended use to the point that it approaches a properly setup A/A system, you have invested way more money to only be ~90% as the A/A design.
However, having room for a properly set up system is another issue all together...as is a cooling application for drag racing purposes. A/W all the way if drag racing is your main focus.
I'd be willing to bet that the 80mm+ and 15lbs+ boost that we are talking about with these combos is not what Bell is considering "street use".
Rick
Last edited by 2001-WS6; 12-10-2008 at 10:34 AM.
12-10-2008, 10:24 AM
#30
Never had a heat soak problem driving around my A2W setup on the street, even when it was 115 outside here in Phoenix. At most it went up about 15-20 deg over ambient and stayed there pull after pull. Then again I have a fairly large tank and heat exchanger. You will never get the efficiency of an A2W out of an A2A. If you think an A2W setup is too complicated you shouldn't be working on your car. 
At least give a good excuse like I don't want to spend the money or I don't want the added maintenance.
At least give a good excuse like I don't want to spend the money or I don't want the added maintenance.
12-10-2008, 01:26 PM
#31
Ray,
The simple fact of life will be that you'll be down to making one pass every 20-30 minutes on an average day at Norwalk. Turning around faster then that means not running at max power and what's the point of that? A2W will allow you to bleed everything you can possible squeeze out of it at the track on a given day and A2A can not compete at the track.
A properly setup A2W systems has a heat exchanger after the intercooler that will cool the water as it returns to the tank. That heat exchanger will typically have a high speed fan that can move air over so it's not dependent on the car being in motion. The pump and heat exchanger fan should be on separate switches so you can choose to activate them as need. It doesn't take long to return the water back to near ambient air temp for street use.
I have never found myself wishing that I had A2A on the street and I doubt MM has either even though he has the most street time in this thread. I'd be willing to bet though some of the A2A guys would have liked to have had A2W though at the track when those last few tenths were on the line for their first 8s or 9s pass.
A properly sized A2W will cost more money than A2A but like everything else, you get what you pay for and in this case... that's a lower ET and a higher MPH with A2W.
In the end, you can't go wrong with either as long as it's sized for your goals and that turbo has plenty of room for some really nice goals. Don't forget that a good meth kit can help out as well with the perceived weaknesses of either cooling option.
Rick
The simple fact of life will be that you'll be down to making one pass every 20-30 minutes on an average day at Norwalk. Turning around faster then that means not running at max power and what's the point of that?
A2W will allow you to bleed everything you can possible squeeze out of it at the track on a given day and A2A can not compete at the track.A properly setup A2W systems has a heat exchanger after the intercooler that will cool the water as it returns to the tank. That heat exchanger will typically have a high speed fan that can move air over so it's not dependent on the car being in motion. The pump and heat exchanger fan should be on separate switches so you can choose to activate them as need. It doesn't take long to return the water back to near ambient air temp for street use.
I have never found myself wishing that I had A2A on the street and I doubt MM has either even though he has the most street time in this thread. I'd be willing to bet though some of the A2A guys would have liked to have had A2W though at the track when those last few tenths were on the line for their first 8s or 9s pass.
A properly sized A2W will cost more money than A2A but like everything else, you get what you pay for and in this case... that's a lower ET and a higher MPH with A2W.
In the end, you can't go wrong with either as long as it's sized for your goals and that turbo has plenty of room for some really nice goals. Don't forget that a good meth kit can help out as well with the perceived weaknesses of either cooling option.
Rick
12-10-2008, 01:30 PM
#32
A Talon is a little bit tougher because of the tight spaces involved. Once an F-body guy concedes that they don't need AC and moves the battery back to the trunk, space becomes available for better combos relative to the power being discussed. Toss in Meth and life gets even better.
In my case, tuning on the freeway at 15-20lbs of boost is not a problem with a 2.5 gallon tank, a small heat exchanger and a 900hp rated IC that comes with a TTi race kit. The whole A2W setup is under the hood.
The guys at TTi have done a good job of sizing the A2W combo for their kit which took the guess work out of it for us.
That A2W combo has been good enough for me to run back to back 9.4x passes at 148mph, with one tank of ice and a 20 minute turn around on a 75 degree day. MM added more capacity so I think he is up to 5 gallons with his back seat tank and that's a street car that runs 8.7s at 159mph with the same IC and heat exchanger. Both of these cars are over 3,700lbs so they make some decent power.
It's awefully tough to make direct comparisons because of the number of variables (cooling capacity of a kit, fuel used, meth?, temps for ambient and final IAT at a pass mph, DA and so on) involved but hopefully this helps show our real world experience so that others can see what's possible with a properly spec'd setup.
Rick
In my case, tuning on the freeway at 15-20lbs of boost is not a problem with a 2.5 gallon tank, a small heat exchanger and a 900hp rated IC that comes with a TTi race kit. The whole A2W setup is under the hood.
The guys at TTi have done a good job of sizing the A2W combo for their kit which took the guess work out of it for us.
That A2W combo has been good enough for me to run back to back 9.4x passes at 148mph, with one tank of ice and a 20 minute turn around on a 75 degree day. MM added more capacity so I think he is up to 5 gallons with his back seat tank and that's a street car that runs 8.7s at 159mph with the same IC and heat exchanger. Both of these cars are over 3,700lbs so they make some decent power.
It's awefully tough to make direct comparisons because of the number of variables (cooling capacity of a kit, fuel used, meth?, temps for ambient and final IAT at a pass mph, DA and so on) involved but hopefully this helps show our real world experience so that others can see what's possible with a properly spec'd setup.
Rick
= hp....and be maintains free ..
12-10-2008, 01:34 PM
#33
Never had a heat soak problem driving around my A2W setup on the street, even when it was 115 outside here in Phoenix. At most it went up about 15-20 deg over ambient and stayed there pull after pull. Then again I have a fairly large tank and heat exchanger. You will never get the efficiency of an A2W out of an A2A. If you think an A2W setup is too complicated you shouldn't be working on your car. At least give a good excuse like I don't want to spend the money or I don't want the added maintenance.
At least give a good excuse like I don't want to spend the money or I don't want the added maintenance.Last edited by otherwhitemeat; 12-10-2008 at 01:46 PM.
12-10-2008, 01:55 PM
#34
If I read this correctly the TTI kit has a small W2A exhanger (with a fan) that cools the water before returning to the tank?
Do you have any pictures of it and where its mounted.
I asked before, anyone ever try direct contact injection if liquid Co2 into the A2W tank to keep the temp down. It could be hooked up and controlled like a nitrous system under WOT?
Anybody make a A2A that has an internal coil that nitrous or liquid Co2 runs in to bring the temp below ambient temps?or a seperate exchanger mounted in series with the A2A.
12-10-2008, 02:18 PM
#36
Anybody make a A2A that has an internal coil that nitrous or liquid Co2 runs in to bring the temp below ambient temps?or a seperate exchanger mounted in series with the A2A.[/QUOTE]
There is an external bar you can mount in front of an ATA to spray no2 or water on the intercooler to coll it down more.
There is an external bar you can mount in front of an ATA to spray no2 or water on the intercooler to coll it down more.
12-10-2008, 02:56 PM
#37
Its just that an ATW is not needed and is at a disadvantage on the street....ATW will work ok, but ATA is lighter and makes more power then a warm ATW system, also there are ways to cool an ATA system even more... But yes ATw is best for the track...but for a street car as mine and others..it's not needed and is a waste.
Last edited by NicD; 12-10-2008 at 03:02 PM.
12-10-2008, 03:30 PM
#38
9 Second Club
$10 bucks of ice will get me about 10 9.4 passes at the track and a can of pop to drink.
Rick
Last edited by 2001-WS6; 12-10-2008 at 04:01 PM.
12-10-2008, 03:34 PM
#39
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I decided to switch over to a turbo setup. It will be a custom stainless tubular manifold setup with a single GT55-91. Tial 60mm wastegate and Tial Q bov.
I am planning to use a large custom A2A intercooler but I have a lot of doubts.
I know the A2W is the way to go but im concerned about all the street driving i do. Sometimes I need to be "ready" for action without hauling a cooler full of ice around.
I would think an A2A would be alot better than a A2W with no ice?
Has anyone used Co2 or nitrous to cool the water in an A2W?
I am planning to use a large custom A2A intercooler but I have a lot of doubts.
I know the A2W is the way to go but im concerned about all the street driving i do. Sometimes I need to be "ready" for action without hauling a cooler full of ice around.
I would think an A2A would be alot better than a A2W with no ice?
Has anyone used Co2 or nitrous to cool the water in an A2W?
Here is what the GM trucks have access to, maybe adapt into your world.
http://www.performancetrucks.net/for...d.php?t=428611
Use the AC system to keep the water temps at or below abient.
12-10-2008, 03:39 PM
#40
9 Second Club
It's been done with with simple LS1, LS2 builds to get me down to a 9.4s on 94 octane pump gas with meth and a stock PCM at this weight. Both cars show up on the same drag radials that they drive on street when they go to the store for a beer or when I drop the kids off at school. No need to change any tunes or files between the street and the track for us to run these times on baby Mototron injectors too.
Rick