bluebird71

iTrader: (54)

I'm looking at APS kits for my 347 LS1 (9.2:1 compression) and I'm trying to get a good idea of how quick the turbos in this kit spool up. I want the larger "Extreme" kit that is capable of 1,000 + hp. Anyone who has an APS, let me know what you all think of how it performs on the street. How quick does it spool? How is it with falling in and out of boost when on and off the throttle, and then how quickly does it get back into it fully? I guess this kit has two equal size turbos, as apposed to a kit with one small turbo for low end, quick spool, and a larger turbo for the top end. Vidoes would be a great reference for this thread as well.

MY99TAWS6

iTrader: (3)

I have the kit but just the regular turbos. Someone who can log boost should be able to give you a good idea of spool up and rpm.There are not too many guys out there with the larger kit and most getting it would be running bigger motors.

I only got to drive my car for a few weeks before had to put it away and only at gate boost of around 7.5psi and again the standard turbos .It spooled crazy fast and certainly no complaints for power output ,traction was main problem and for sure it will be yours with the bigger turbos. I think they can do about 1200 to 1300 engine hp not sure would push even a forged up ls1 to that power level but hey be interesting to see how it holds up. And of course can always go bigger later on engine size. I would guess you would see boost starting at about 3000 to 3500 with the bigger ones on your current engine with full at around 4000. I am pretty sure I start seeing boost at 2500 to 3000 and full at around 3500 in third with my combo.But again logging would be the best way to know for sure. I am going to speed density in a few months and then it would be easy to log boost.

Basically I would expect the bigger turbos to be about 500 slower on spool than the smaller ones. And a bigger engine should spool up quicker of course maybe by about 500 rpm also. So my 408 likely can spool up 500 quicker than a 346 ,one reason that I might consider going to the bigger turbos but pretty sure can't afford to trade them up them being used now. They are mits and not ball bearing like garett used on some of the kits. Ball bearing of course can hold boost better between shifts and think spool up a bit quicker. Still having them spool up a bit later might help in the traction department.

Can only imagine spool up with a 427 or 454. That would be crazy crazy. Gear based boost control will for sure be a good idea as well. And looking into this racelogic variable traction control. My car didn't even get factory traction control. These turbo beasts are a handful let me tell you. Fun and scary.

hellbents10

iTrader: (10)

Here in the 1000hp v8 world you will never even think of the word spool when you stab the gas, guaranteed! Only thing you will hope and pray for is traction in ever gear.

bluebird71

iTrader: (54)

Are they a bit unpredictable at times? Say I give it a little too much throttle while going around a windy corner, will it be prone to kick on too viciously without warning, even at less than full throttle? My concern here isn't necessarily that the kit won't spool quick enough, and certainly not that it won't make enough power, its that the power band might be a little too unpredictable.

MY99TAWS6

iTrader: (3)

Or traction in ANY gear! LOL
As said looking into this cool race logic variable traction control that has been used on tt vipers for my car. They even have a two step option for launching on the traction control.

Definitely a good idea to have boost control by gear not sure how boost by rpm will work out. I have eboost2 to install and play with in spring.

Not sure how your built 346 is but my built 408 is nuts enough even off boost to make full throttle driving pretty challenging. Definitely going from current pretty much worn out 275/40/17 nitto drags to 315 nittos or 315 et street radials or m and h street radials to have any hope of hooking it up even at low boost like 7.5psi max.

Yes it will be vioient when it spools up but the bigger ones may help by moving the powerband up. Rear gearing might help too. I have 3.42 and going to 3.54 as thats lowest can get on the s60 that want to run.
Realistically much past 600rwhp is not easy to hook up at all on the street.

MY99TAWS6

iTrader: (3)

http://www.racelogic.co.uk/?show=Traction_Control

bluebird71

iTrader: (54)

How much does a TCS system like that run? There are no real prices on that site. I wonder if having factory TCS like I do would make any difference when getting a system like that.

MY99TAWS6

iTrader: (3)

They have prices on the site under retail prices they are in english pounds. There are few dealers in US pretty sure.
Its not cheap. Factory setup is pretty useless as f body system is so on or off type of thing making it useless for any kind of racing type thing but ok for safety especially for people that have no clue what a powerful build turbo beast is like to drive..

My car has no factory traction option. The vettes have much better traction controls not sure how the fifth gen camaros are setup. But this ones main advantage is its adjustable. I will see how my car is once get some new tires. Main problem there is et street radials and m and h street radials don't last long and are crap in rain. Nittos are better in rain and last longer but not as sticky as the et or m and h or bfg drag radials.

I am a bit confused as there was a thread on the topic of high hp FI cars and tires awhile back on here. Some said the nittos worked well but most were running a et or m and h drag radial.

ls1greg

iTrader: (2)

More engine details here and here, but in a nutshell, 348, 9.2:1, standard APS kit. On 245/50R16 KDWS tires, traction sucked. Boost came in way too quickly for me. I'd have addressed the problem, but more important things popped up.

In regards to your on/off throttle question... I always had a little lag, but I was never able to go WOT either (collapsing inlet tubes).

The graph below was recreated in Excel using this printout from EPP's Mustang Dyno.

hawk584

iTrader: (1)

bluebird71

iTrader: (54)

What is the max hp the standard APS kit supports?

Disturbed Bird

iTrader: (9)

i saw one race car (Gumpert) on topgear they did a 10min thing on the racelogic TC system it works wonders on that car making 800HP and at 2,900lbs. im deff going to look in to it

MY99TAWS6

iTrader: (3)

Wow Greg that is one quick spool up. Looks like boost starts at 2500 and full in by 3000. That is quick. So would think mine is like maybe in by 2500 and starts at 2000 with the standard turbos. Have to graph it and check this spring. That would likely be a good reason to go bigger and have it come in a bit higher. Too bad you can't have boost come in less than gate spring. So with standard springs you can only have it come in at 7.5 and higher . guess could run smaller springs and ramp it up but then you likely can't go much past double spring psi?
Not too many ways around it. Wild ride with decently built engines and quick spooling twins. Definitely that race logic might be good idea!

Standard kit should be good for around 1000 engine hp or 800rwhp or so with auto and maybe 850 on stick. We have not seen don't think any that have gone that high except maybe aps dyno its on this forum somewhere. Lots of aps info if you search. The larger ones are supposed to do about 1200 or 1300 engine ,this is calculated roughly from their airflow of think 65 pounds per minute . Times that by 10 per turbo and get close to the potential in engine hp. Course engine size makes difference in how much boost is needed to reach potential. Less boost on bigger engines assuming you can still get the airflow to hit max depending on things like backpressure.
The standards seem to be a good match on 346 and they have gone high 9s already at near 140mph in a 402 build..JM's car on this forum.
9s would be more than fast enough for me. Heck 10s would likely be fast enough for me.
And Jm was at like 12psi on standard turbos on a 402 auto might have been a bit more psi left in there. Not many have really pushed the turbos due to orginal inlet tubes collapsing at like 12psi. They have upgraded ones now not sure if they are in the new kits..they should be.

I will also repeat that 1000 rwhp is absolutely nuts on any street car. 500 to 600 rwhp is lots for most any street car and remember most factory supercars are around this power range ..low 600s engine hp in the z1r or twin turbo amg sl65,etc. As keep saying its not easy to run much more and hook it up. And spinning tires madly at plus 100mph is a a@@hole puckering experience! People say you can regulate the power with your right foot and you can a bit but go wot on one of these things and you better be able to think into the future and react quickly if the car starts to go funky chicken on you.
I had a couple of close calls right before put it away. Roads were getting cold. nittos were not working and well had a few scary moments!
Thats why the words of spiderman come to mind..With absolute power comes absolute responsiblity.. or whatever it was..you have to respect a plus 500rwhp car ,especially one that can add on so much power so quickly. Its like engaging a 200 shot of nitrous or sometimes even more. And the bottle never runs empty. Very addictive to any speed freak.
Even more crazy watching my turbo 4 banger talons go from maybe 200 engine hp to like 600 in a flash. That is a rush for sure.From lawnmower to crazy ,from clark kent to superman in the blink of an eye. And of course a big turboed v8 is even more nuts with all that torque.
Check out that torque on the dyno above. That is pretty darn close to a roots blower graph. With much better efficiency and top end power.

bluebird71

iTrader: (54)

Well put, but look at my numbers, I'm already making 602 hp at the rears and its not enough of a rush for me anymore. Of course, I can't imagine what 602 constant rwhp would feel like under boost, it is probably a completely different animal. Still, I will have a boost controller to help keep me down in the more predictable range when I feel like just crusin', but then I can just **** people's world up with the touch of a button. You gotta love that about a turbo. You said your car only goes down to about 7.5 lbs. at its lowest boost setting, but you are running a 408 stroker which makes more power at lower boost levels. I'm thinking that I would be just fine since at 7.5 lbs. my 347 would be at maybe 550 rwhp. Its when I crank it up that things start to change since my motor is capable of taking over 20 psi easily. I'm actually making 450 rwhp right now on 87 octane, low grade fuel. I should have a long stretch i can go on power before I have to move into full on race gas. Of course I'll do a methanol injection as well to keep it safe.

TNTramair

iTrader: (15)

if you dont have a problem with holding the power off a 150 squeeze than you shouldnt with the Turbos.
why would you goose it going around a turn??? if you use some self restraint you wont have any problem with the back end breakin loose. you can be in it part throttle and it wont build any boost if your just cruising. however, if you drop the hammer going around a turn and the boost comes up sure as **** your gonna lose it.
as far as the APS...im at full boost by about 3000-3200rpms (9psi), that is if the tires hold. however, i have a slightly bigger motor as well (402cu) so i dont need to worry about "lag" or "building boost". it comes on smooth and fast, just the way i like it.

MY99TAWS6

iTrader: (3)

My 408 is not likely more than 50 or so hp more than your 346 and similar or a bit more torque I would think. We have very similar mods..the same afr heads, the fast intake and same tb, underdrive pulley,cam is fairly similar with my 1.8 to give it around 590 lift. Remember you have to give up the headers which will lose some base power. My compression is 9.5 to 1.

So of course your engine or mine is no slouch even with no boost or spray.
Now on spray you have very nice power.And sure the car starts to be a pretty good handful. What type and size tires are you running? I really like those wheels do they come in a 10.5 or 11 type of size for the rears? Was going to upgrade my firehawk to torque thrust m to get wider backs for more rubber.

Now the turbos even standard should get you close to 800rwhp with no spray . You can run spray with the turbos. They play well together on forged engines I plan on direct kit since our fast is made for that. I know some say the fast isn't the best for turbo but seen many guys go to 20psi no problem.On afr website are links to two 1000 hp turbo builds with afr and fast 90/90 combos. The aps dyno uses a very simlar build to yours. afr 225, fast 90 and 90 tb.Bit wilder cam the lingenfelter gt11. No underdrive.
They got close to dynojet equivalent 800rwhp from it. So that is like another couple hundred rwhp over what you have now on spray and also lots of torque. Now your spray and you would already have950rwhp maybe 1000rwhp as nitrous effects seem magnified on turbo cars. So a 150 shot might actually give 200hp. Seen many examples of this on dsm cars like my talon.
The upgraded kit could do 1000 or so rwhp and then you could get another 150 or 200 from your nitrous. Just not sure how good an idea to go much over 1000rwhp on the ls1 block. I have seen guys go mid thousands on the 6.0 iron blocks like mine. Didn't check too much though to see if they filled the block or did anything special to it.

Personally I think will stick to about 1000rwhp on spray. Even if did upgrade to the bigger turbos would likely just run less boost than max. But as you said you can up the boost with controllers like eboost2 or ams 1000 and have some control with gear or rpm .

I am not trying to talk you out of the turbo build. Obviously I have a very simlar build.
All I can say is I like to be traction limited never power limited. And my car fits that already even with no spray on top yet. I would think I am close to 650rwhp even at only 7.5psi. Find out more this season hopefully as want to get some track and dyno numbers.

That tex twin might need to be upgraded to a triple or possibly other make of twin ,its a bit of wild card what power a tex twin can really take. Aps tried tex and had not very good results. Some others have had various results. Most had great results on big power past 800rwhp with the triples. And many high power great results with the spec twins. I am going to 4l80e with nice stall. Sick of manuals for various reasons.
Going to dana 60 rear end.

I think I would get the bigger aps kit anyway as you can grow with it and really doubt it will be that laggy anyway even on a 346.And you will have instant spool up if you also use the spray. You can see Gregs graph and how damn quick the standard turbos come in. There have been problems on the f body standard kit turbos so going to the upgraded kit might be good idea. I have a dud that have to remove and fix. It works but leaks coolant big time into the coolant. I ran it no water line connected for week or so that had the combo running last fall. You can do it as they still are primarily oil cooled but its not the best idea.
I would upgrade to the bigger turbos but have to talk to aps and see how much to go up.Or other sponsors on the site are upgrading the aps turbos.

You will love turbos,its like never ending bottle ,and the rush no matter what psi never gets old to me. Course higher psi will give bigger rush like bigger nitrous shot.You didn't mention compression. Did you get the larger chamber afr. You do want to be 8.5 to 9.5 range for the turbos. I went a bit higher to 9.5 as knew would always be running alc/meth injection and maybe e85 down the road when we get it up here if we ever do.

There are tons of info on the aps kits on this forum if you search aps. There are some small problems with the kits but for the most part think the kit is high quality and very stealthy and let me keep my air conditioning. The install was long and extensive but they have great manual. You can read the manual on their website if you wish.
Of course its a tuner kit and you need to buy fuel support and speed density tuning is pretty much required at the much past 600 rwhp levels. I am going to 3 bar. I am going to lonnies twin tank and likely will have to go up on my 60 pounders for sure not sure how much higher or if low or high impedence. A single huge pump setup might be good idea too but for now am trying intank setup as said I don't want to go much past 1000rwhp ever. My plate was my goal for engine hp. I think should have no trouble reaching that.

Hugger Z

iTrader: (4)

Mine start spooling around 2,000 rpm and I have full boost by 3,000.

As far as driving around corners, the car drives like a normal V8 when not in boost. And as soon as you get it straight and mash the pedal, it pulls like a freight train screaming to the redline (if you get traction). It is quick to come back up into boost when shifting. I have never had a problem on the street or at the track with it.

bluebird71

iTrader: (54)

I am running 315 Nitto 555R's. I have the older 10.5in. wheels, but now they are out in 11's.

I have considered this, I have been throwing around the idea of going with an f1 Procharger with spray for quite a while now, but I keep coming back to the turbo because thats really what my motor was built around.

I have thought of ditching my underdrive pulleys plenty of times. I don't know how much power they will actually make over stock ones once I'm on boost, but they are definitely a pain in the *** right now and I am having a hard time getting good amps from my alternator with them, though I have moved up to a 220 amp alternator with bigger wiring and an even smaller pulley for overdrive. This helped a little, but still only registers about half way up on the volt meter.

I actually have an HKE forged C5R racing block so I think I should be good with power well over 1,000. I figure I could just stoke that motor to a 408 later and keep the same pistons or sell it and get a bigger shortblock. If I do that though,

I really hate to hear this considering I JUST bought a Tex twin the other day after searching for one for months. They are a great clutch though and I got a good deal on one too. If it goes out, I'll just do a $500 rebuild on it rather than buying am almost $3k triple disc. An auto would be a much easier way to go, but I gotta have my 6-speed to carve the corners.

I actually read the thread you had about this earlier. I am planning on getting a TruTrac 9". I have to have TruTrac for handling purposes. My car already has a full Strano suspension so I'm not willing to sacrifice anything in the handling aspect.

Pros: The 9" is over 10 lbs. lighter than the S60. It doesn't have the tenancy toward gear wine that the S60 does. It can use the new Strano Watts link system (although so can the S60)

Cons: It only goes up to 31 spline on a TruTrac, whereas the S60 goes up to a stronger 35 spline.

I'm at 9.2:1 right now and can run on 87 octane.

I allready have 60lb. Siemens injectors in. I was planning on going with the lonnies fuel rails and twin fuel pumps. I'm trying not to break the bank on the fuel system. I currently have the Racetronix which is good up to 650rwhp. I'm wondering if I could get away with going ahead and installing the turbo kit now and running it at the lowest boost level. That way I could step up to the bigger fuel system and then turn up the boost once I got the money and the rest of the stuff to support all that power, like the rear.

By the way, are you talking about a restrictor plate?

Big Bird WS6

iTrader: (9)

there is place close to me that sells the kit for traction control. minus install kit is around 2k but they will only sell you the kit if they get to install it. and since they have never done it to ta. it is based on 100dollars an hour. which sucks

MY99TAWS6

iTrader: (3)

In the instructions think on the site it didn't look that hard to install but some electrical skills would be a good thing. I have several friends highly skilled in soldering and wiring.
But it would be nice if another company would offer similar or same setup in plug and play for us f body guys.