View Poll Results: Turbo or Supercharger?
Voters: 49. You may not vote on this poll
Supercharger vs Turbocharger
04-20-2009, 04:28 PM
#41
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Who are you to decide what is and is not properly designed? Are you telling us that you know more than General Motors, Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Chrysler, and Maserati's engineers, combined? Forgive me if I raise the BS flag on that.
Originally Posted by honeycutt.dewey
Superchargers are easier to install, manage, and troubleshoot, are cheaper to buy and maintain, and are more reliable. Building on the concept of spooling, superchargers produce instant torque, which is what you want for driving down the street; having an exorbitant amount of high-rpm horsepower in a streetcar can only get you one place, fast... jail.
Where can I buy a supercharger that will allow me to run 400rwhp on my 3.0L Toyota for under $650 BRAND NEW? A 57 trim CT26 turbocharger costs that. What would a 400rwhp capable supercharger run me?
How much boost is your average Centrifugal Supercharger making at 2000rpm? Oh yeah - DAMN NEAR NONE.
I'm not even going to touch on this high-rpm horsepower only BULLSHIT concerning a turbocharger. Go take a ride in a STOCK Talon TSi and tell me where the 'high rpm' horsepower is.
Originally Posted by honeycutt.dewey
One of the main cars I drive is a turbodiesel with quite a bit of power under its hood. you floor the pedal and it takes about 1-3 seconds (yes, seconds) for the turbo to kick in, then you get your power. with a blower, you get instant gratification as well as the "back to the seat" satisfaction.
Originally Posted by honeycutt.dewey
again, don't argue about this, but SCs can produce more power at 2 lbs boost than a turbo at 8.
You sound like an Obama supporter - DON'T ARGUE JUST BELIEVE! No. I will argue with stupidity WHEREVER it may attempt to infest the thinking among us.
Originally Posted by honeycutt.dewey
Now, in a racecar, a turbo setup is MUCH better, because you get the high end horsepower that you want, making up for the lack of off the line power. you get better traction because of the lack of power at the line.
STUPID
Originally Posted by honeycutt.dewey
nitrous has its pros and cons as well, but I won't go into that because I have never personally experimented.
Originally Posted by honeycutt.dewey
(also NOS is flammable) 
http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguide...cognition.html
Random NSX guys:
http://www.nsxprime.com/wiki/Nitrous
Wiki-*******-pedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrous_oxide
I can't stand the STUPID found here, and I damn sure don't approve of misinformation.
Bottom line, ANY forced induction can do what you want to do, provided you do it appropriately.
Black00SSFLmorerandomnumbersandstuff - Go get Supercharged! by Corky Bell as well - it's damn good information.
BTW, I own a Turbo Supra, and a Supercharged Ion Redline. I get the best of both worlds! (although the IRL is going to get a 1.6L Whipple in the future
) 
04-20-2009, 05:03 PM
#43
Its impossible for one to be "better" than the other. You need to set a goal for the car and based upon that goal decide what you need. Ask some guys who have owned turbo and blower cars. Lets say your goal is a 9 second 1/4 mile with good street manners. A supercharger will take you all the way with no hassle like a turbo. Say you want a max effort 7 second drag car. Might as well go turbo.
There's alot of misinformation on this site about blowers and turbos. Everyone is so quick to point out turbos as the superior power adder, and that may be true as far as peak power potential, but that doesn't always mean much. Take KP for example; 9.0's with a D1SC, 8.9 with an F1A. How many turbo guys have been faster? Maybe a few, all I can think of is the really fast guys (Ohio boys, Kempf, Major, etc) and of course Mightymouse, which is about the only streetable lsx car going 8's I can think of at the moment.
When a combo is built right, there aren't too many trade offs. Guys always point to centis as having lag down low due to RPM related boost. Tell ya what, I'll take on any streetable turbo car from a low rpm roll in my D1SC camaro. Both of us rolling at around 30-40 mph with low rpms (2000-ish) and we'll stomp on it. I have cash money that says I walk away while you build boost.
There's alot of misinformation on this site about blowers and turbos. Everyone is so quick to point out turbos as the superior power adder, and that may be true as far as peak power potential, but that doesn't always mean much. Take KP for example; 9.0's with a D1SC, 8.9 with an F1A. How many turbo guys have been faster? Maybe a few, all I can think of is the really fast guys (Ohio boys, Kempf, Major, etc) and of course Mightymouse, which is about the only streetable lsx car going 8's I can think of at the moment.
When a combo is built right, there aren't too many trade offs. Guys always point to centis as having lag down low due to RPM related boost. Tell ya what, I'll take on any streetable turbo car from a low rpm roll in my D1SC camaro. Both of us rolling at around 30-40 mph with low rpms (2000-ish) and we'll stomp on it. I have cash money that says I walk away while you build boost.
04-20-2009, 06:28 PM
#44
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Its impossible for one to be "better" than the other. You need to set a goal for the car and based upon that goal decide what you need. Ask some guys who have owned turbo and blower cars. Lets say your goal is a 9 second 1/4 mile with good street manners. A supercharger will take you all the way with no hassle like a turbo. Say you want a max effort 7 second drag car. Might as well go turbo.
There's alot of misinformation on this site about blowers and turbos. Everyone is so quick to point out turbos as the superior power adder, and that may be true as far as peak power potential, but that doesn't always mean much. Take KP for example; 9.0's with a D1SC, 8.9 with an F1A. How many turbo guys have been faster? Maybe a few, all I can think of is the really fast guys (Ohio boys, Kempf, Major, etc) and of course Mightymouse, which is about the only streetable lsx car going 8's I can think of at the moment.
When a combo is built right, there aren't too many trade offs. Guys always point to centis as having lag down low due to RPM related boost. Tell ya what, I'll take on any streetable turbo car from a low rpm roll in my D1SC camaro. Both of us rolling at around 30-40 mph with low rpms (2000-ish) and we'll stomp on it. I have cash money that says I walk away while you build boost.
There's alot of misinformation on this site about blowers and turbos. Everyone is so quick to point out turbos as the superior power adder, and that may be true as far as peak power potential, but that doesn't always mean much. Take KP for example; 9.0's with a D1SC, 8.9 with an F1A. How many turbo guys have been faster? Maybe a few, all I can think of is the really fast guys (Ohio boys, Kempf, Major, etc) and of course Mightymouse, which is about the only streetable lsx car going 8's I can think of at the moment.
When a combo is built right, there aren't too many trade offs. Guys always point to centis as having lag down low due to RPM related boost. Tell ya what, I'll take on any streetable turbo car from a low rpm roll in my D1SC camaro. Both of us rolling at around 30-40 mph with low rpms (2000-ish) and we'll stomp on it. I have cash money that says I walk away while you build boost.
Well said! All those guys you listed are some fast ****'s..
I don't keep an eye on everything going on, but I do keep an eye on the class that I will be running which is the 275 DR's. Record holder last year was a procharger at 7.6x's, that record got taken by a turbo car at 7.5x's and the MPH record is still a procharger. Like was said, it all depends what you want to do, I don't see one being superior to the other unless you maybe want to look at peak HP, otherwise they seem somewhat evenly matched, but I'm no expert for sure.
04-20-2009, 06:56 PM
#45
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u could go 6`s, 7`s, 8`s and so on in the 1/4 mile with a turbo or supercharger (NA and N2O included too). What really matters is $$$$.
if you are not sure which to go with flip a coin u cant go wrong.
if you are not sure which to go with flip a coin u cant go wrong.
04-20-2009, 08:19 PM
#46
04-20-2009, 10:29 PM
#47
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i say what ever you want as long it is not a procharger.
- turbo has lag but doesnt take power to make power.
- roots super has no lag but takes power to make power.
- and a procharger has lag and takes power to make power. so that sucks
yes i know the pro will make more horse down the road but for a street car. no thanks
- turbo has lag but doesnt take power to make power.
- roots super has no lag but takes power to make power.
- and a procharger has lag and takes power to make power. so that sucks
yes i know the pro will make more horse down the road but for a street car. no thanks
04-20-2009, 10:38 PM
#48
i say what ever you want as long it is not a procharger.
- turbo has lag but doesnt take power to make power.
- roots super has no lag but takes power to make power.
- and a procharger has lag and takes power to make power. so that sucks
yes i know the pro will make more horse down the road but for a street car. no thanks
- turbo has lag but doesnt take power to make power.
- roots super has no lag but takes power to make power.
- and a procharger has lag and takes power to make power. so that sucks
yes i know the pro will make more horse down the road but for a street car. no thanks
04-21-2009, 07:48 AM
#49
i say what ever you want as long it is not a procharger.
- turbo has lag but doesnt take power to make power.
- roots super has no lag but takes power to make power.
- and a procharger has lag and takes power to make power. so that sucks
yes i know the pro will make more horse down the road but for a street car. no thanks
- turbo has lag but doesnt take power to make power.
- roots super has no lag but takes power to make power.
- and a procharger has lag and takes power to make power. so that sucks
yes i know the pro will make more horse down the road but for a street car. no thanks
04-21-2009, 09:07 AM
#50
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Again misinformation. Turbo doesn't have "lag" if properly setup. The boost threshold is a side affect that is a must if you have a turbo properly spec'ed for your engine....and it's usually at a very low rpm which wouldn't be used in racing. Also, YES it does take power to run a turbo. A turbo causes back pressure which takes away some power. It's not near the amount needed to run a belt on a s/c, but it is power taken away from the engine.
I mean really, can you tell me exactly how much HP I lose with my roots? Because I'm making 180 more than when I didn't have it at all.
04-21-2009, 09:45 AM
#51
Listen I voted turbo for fact of efficiency and street manners. There are MANY viable topics on why to pic a s/c over a turbo. Efficiency and max potential are NOT them. Please stick to ease of installation, not as many things to go wrong, overall price, etc. In a perfect world a turbo IS better, but it ain't perfect and we gotta worry about the above things I mentioned, therefore it is a case by case situation when deciding between the two.
Last edited by black00ssFL; 04-21-2009 at 09:52 AM.
04-21-2009, 11:01 AM
#52
i say what ever you want as long it is not a procharger.
- turbo has lag but doesnt take power to make power.
- roots super has no lag but takes power to make power.
- and a procharger has lag and takes power to make power. so that sucks
yes i know the pro will make more horse down the road but for a street car. no thanks
- turbo has lag but doesnt take power to make power.
- roots super has no lag but takes power to make power.
- and a procharger has lag and takes power to make power. so that sucks
yes i know the pro will make more horse down the road but for a street car. no thanks
Please stop posting. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Anyone with a properly set up procharger car knows that lag is non existent.
04-21-2009, 11:32 AM
#53
There is no lag with a procharger in the sense of waiting for it to spool up. There is delay reaching full boost as it depends on rpm. Obviously if you launch it at 6500 at the track its going to be pretty much full boost right away. And you can gear down if you are in higher gear like third in town or firth or sixth on the highway to get more boost faster.
So lag not the correct term for procharger but they do not make full boost instantly at low rpm they are progressive with the boost..like 2psi at 2000, 4psi at 4000,7psi at 6000..just pulling numbers to show the point.
Turbos have some lag. Time from start of building boost to full boost. Depends on many factors..size of turbos and AR of the turbo housings,size of engine,tuning, type of turbo like ball bearing versus standard bearing. Some turbo builds are horrible with huge lag.This can greatly limit the useable power band.
You can also gear down on manual cars with turbos if you are in higher gear to get boost much faster . Course autos will downshift too. And properly sized turbo kit can hit full boost at 3000 rpm or even 2500 on a v8 engine without much trouble.
And roots and centrificals can build boost lower in the rpm range and have no lag either.
All the power adders work and work well over stock engines. Which one is best depends mostly on personal taste. Its pretty much unargueable that in theory turbos are the most effiicient and can produce the most potential power. They have been outlawed in many classes thruout the years.
Also with supers you still have to go bigger and bigger to make more power which costs more and might cause problems with fitting them in the car,etc. Not like a p1sc can do 1600 hp or a mp112. Same with turbos of course .have to go to bigger turbos to make more power. And huge turbos might also not be easy to fit in the vehicle.One reason to use two smaller ones sometimes.
So lag not the correct term for procharger but they do not make full boost instantly at low rpm they are progressive with the boost..like 2psi at 2000, 4psi at 4000,7psi at 6000..just pulling numbers to show the point.
Turbos have some lag. Time from start of building boost to full boost. Depends on many factors..size of turbos and AR of the turbo housings,size of engine,tuning, type of turbo like ball bearing versus standard bearing. Some turbo builds are horrible with huge lag.This can greatly limit the useable power band.
You can also gear down on manual cars with turbos if you are in higher gear to get boost much faster . Course autos will downshift too. And properly sized turbo kit can hit full boost at 3000 rpm or even 2500 on a v8 engine without much trouble.
And roots and centrificals can build boost lower in the rpm range and have no lag either.
All the power adders work and work well over stock engines. Which one is best depends mostly on personal taste. Its pretty much unargueable that in theory turbos are the most effiicient and can produce the most potential power. They have been outlawed in many classes thruout the years.
Also with supers you still have to go bigger and bigger to make more power which costs more and might cause problems with fitting them in the car,etc. Not like a p1sc can do 1600 hp or a mp112. Same with turbos of course .have to go to bigger turbos to make more power. And huge turbos might also not be easy to fit in the vehicle.One reason to use two smaller ones sometimes.
04-21-2009, 11:55 AM
#54
Hmm found this little bit of info...
You can get some huge power out of prochargers as well. Was planning to get one on my 96 z for fun and to be a bit different since already have had so many turbo cars.
"Today our blowers have produced over 2,500 hp on gasoline and 3,000 hp on methanol. The fastest ProCharged e.t. to date is 6.25 at 227 mph. --Jim Summers"
Blondes,brunettes,redheads..all good!
Turbos,supers,nitrous...all good!
You can get some huge power out of prochargers as well. Was planning to get one on my 96 z for fun and to be a bit different since already have had so many turbo cars.
"Today our blowers have produced over 2,500 hp on gasoline and 3,000 hp on methanol. The fastest ProCharged e.t. to date is 6.25 at 227 mph. --Jim Summers"
Blondes,brunettes,redheads..all good!
Turbos,supers,nitrous...all good!
04-21-2009, 01:11 PM
#57
Well you guys got me thinking more about a procharger on my 96z but did more reading on various sites and found a lot of very unhappy procharger customers. Most said the d1 was super loud and really annoying rattle at idle. I have driven and riden in d1 ls1 but didn't really listen to it much at idle.
Lots of problems it sounds like with old pb600 and quite a few with p1sc. Now some of these reviews were from bit farther back in time but many were more recent.
I couild have bookmared the site but think will run a poll and you procharger owners can
help me see how truly reliable they are. A common complaint was horrible customer service from ATI and many had failures with the head units and didn't get any warranty on them even though they had almost no miles or failed close to new.
I have had some problems with my aps kit ,one dud on start up turbo and not sure how aps customer service is ,guess will find out soon but installed it after warranty period do to circumstances with my new engine build. Few other minor things with the kit to fix up as well. Manual was good also heard procharger instructions weren't great but this might be from few years ago.
Anyway don't want to argue here will post my poll shortly. I really just about ordered a procharger kit for my lt1 a few days ago and there was a used kit for pretty cheap that almost snapped up a few months ago.
One thing that don't help is the models are the same numbers as in years past..so not sure if there have been any revisions to the base models.I would likely go with a p1sc in my 96z. Don't want to tap pan for oil like pb600 requires and don't think need the power of a d1sc.Also not a big fan of gear rattle at idle. My tex twin has floater rattle and even that bugs me! One reason going to auto.
Lots of problems it sounds like with old pb600 and quite a few with p1sc. Now some of these reviews were from bit farther back in time but many were more recent.
I couild have bookmared the site but think will run a poll and you procharger owners can
help me see how truly reliable they are. A common complaint was horrible customer service from ATI and many had failures with the head units and didn't get any warranty on them even though they had almost no miles or failed close to new.
I have had some problems with my aps kit ,one dud on start up turbo and not sure how aps customer service is ,guess will find out soon but installed it after warranty period do to circumstances with my new engine build. Few other minor things with the kit to fix up as well. Manual was good also heard procharger instructions weren't great but this might be from few years ago.
Anyway don't want to argue here will post my poll shortly. I really just about ordered a procharger kit for my lt1 a few days ago and there was a used kit for pretty cheap that almost snapped up a few months ago.
One thing that don't help is the models are the same numbers as in years past..so not sure if there have been any revisions to the base models.I would likely go with a p1sc in my 96z. Don't want to tap pan for oil like pb600 requires and don't think need the power of a d1sc.Also not a big fan of gear rattle at idle. My tex twin has floater rattle and even that bugs me! One reason going to auto.
04-22-2009, 10:04 AM
#58
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STUPID
Who are you to decide what is and is not properly designed? Are you telling us that you know more than General Motors, Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Chrysler, and Maserati's engineers, combined? Forgive me if I raise the BS flag on that.
STUPID
Where can I buy a supercharger that will allow me to run 400rwhp on my 3.0L Toyota for under $650 BRAND NEW? A 57 trim CT26 turbocharger costs that. What would a 400rwhp capable supercharger run me?
How much boost is your average Centrifugal Supercharger making at 2000rpm? Oh yeah - DAMN NEAR NONE.
I'm not even going to touch on this high-rpm horsepower only BULLSHIT concerning a turbocharger. Go take a ride in a STOCK Talon TSi and tell me where the 'high rpm' horsepower is.
Congrats, too bad a diesel doesn't work like a gasoline engine. Naturally it'd have different spool characteristics. With a blower you also have incredibly high air intake temperatures - YAY!
STUPID
You sound like an Obama supporter - DON'T ARGUE JUST BELIEVE! No. I will argue with stupidity WHEREVER it may attempt to infest the thinking among us.
Oh man, that's good to know! The next time I'm autocrossing, I'll definitely put a T88 on my Supra. Certainly wouldn't want something like low/mid range spool to power out of corners.
STUPID
Christ Almighty, thank you. I'd hate to hear what idiocy you'd spew, especially with this next line -
Not according to the US Dept of Labor:
http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguide...cognition.html
Random NSX guys:
http://www.nsxprime.com/wiki/Nitrous
Wiki-*******-pedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrous_oxide
I can't stand the STUPID found here, and I damn sure don't approve of misinformation.
Bottom line, ANY forced induction can do what you want to do, provided you do it appropriately.
Black00SSFLmorerandomnumbersandstuff - Go get Supercharged! by Corky Bell as well - it's damn good information.
BTW, I own a Turbo Supra, and a Supercharged Ion Redline. I get the best of both worlds! (although the IRL is going to get a 1.6L Whipple in the future)
Who are you to decide what is and is not properly designed? Are you telling us that you know more than General Motors, Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Chrysler, and Maserati's engineers, combined? Forgive me if I raise the BS flag on that.
STUPID
Where can I buy a supercharger that will allow me to run 400rwhp on my 3.0L Toyota for under $650 BRAND NEW? A 57 trim CT26 turbocharger costs that. What would a 400rwhp capable supercharger run me?
How much boost is your average Centrifugal Supercharger making at 2000rpm? Oh yeah - DAMN NEAR NONE.
I'm not even going to touch on this high-rpm horsepower only BULLSHIT concerning a turbocharger. Go take a ride in a STOCK Talon TSi and tell me where the 'high rpm' horsepower is.
Congrats, too bad a diesel doesn't work like a gasoline engine. Naturally it'd have different spool characteristics. With a blower you also have incredibly high air intake temperatures - YAY!
STUPID
You sound like an Obama supporter - DON'T ARGUE JUST BELIEVE! No. I will argue with stupidity WHEREVER it may attempt to infest the thinking among us.
Oh man, that's good to know! The next time I'm autocrossing, I'll definitely put a T88 on my Supra. Certainly wouldn't want something like low/mid range spool to power out of corners.
STUPID
Christ Almighty, thank you. I'd hate to hear what idiocy you'd spew, especially with this next line -
Not according to the US Dept of Labor:
http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguide...cognition.html
Random NSX guys:
http://www.nsxprime.com/wiki/Nitrous
Wiki-*******-pedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrous_oxide
I can't stand the STUPID found here, and I damn sure don't approve of misinformation.
Bottom line, ANY forced induction can do what you want to do, provided you do it appropriately.
Black00SSFLmorerandomnumbersandstuff - Go get Supercharged! by Corky Bell as well - it's damn good information.
BTW, I own a Turbo Supra, and a Supercharged Ion Redline. I get the best of both worlds! (although the IRL is going to get a 1.6L Whipple in the future
)2. no kidding, anyone that thinks a diesel and a gas burner work the same way are dumber than me when it comes to engines.
3. diesel turbos behave just like gas turbos, hot gases all behave the same way, regardless of composition, didn't you learn anything from chemistry class? They try to move from an area of high concentration/pressure to an area of low pressure.
4. incredibly high air intake temperatures... where do you think turbos make their power, huh? Hot gases from the exhaust. Yeah so you've got intercoolers.
5. in no way do I think that I am smarter than any engineers, CEOs maybe, but I could not have developed anything like that if i tried.
I'm really more offended for that Obama crack than anything else that you've said
Last edited by honeycutt.dewey; 04-22-2009 at 10:25 AM.
04-22-2009, 10:45 AM
#60
1. ok a-hole the last one was a sarcastic fast and furious joke
2. no kidding, anyone that thinks a diesel and a gas burner work the same way are dumber than me when it comes to engines.
3. diesel turbos behave just like gas turbos, hot gases all behave the same way, regardless of composition, didn't you learn anything from chemistry class? They try to move from an area of high concentration/pressure to an area of low pressure.
4. incredibly high air intake temperatures... where do you think turbos make their power, huh? Hot gases from the exhaust. Yeah so you've got intercoolers.
5. in no way do I think that I am smarter than any engineers, CEOs maybe, but I could not have developed anything like that if i tried.
I'm really more offended for that Obama crack than anything else that you've said
2. no kidding, anyone that thinks a diesel and a gas burner work the same way are dumber than me when it comes to engines.
3. diesel turbos behave just like gas turbos, hot gases all behave the same way, regardless of composition, didn't you learn anything from chemistry class? They try to move from an area of high concentration/pressure to an area of low pressure.
4. incredibly high air intake temperatures... where do you think turbos make their power, huh? Hot gases from the exhaust. Yeah so you've got intercoolers.
5. in no way do I think that I am smarter than any engineers, CEOs maybe, but I could not have developed anything like that if i tried.
I'm really more offended for that Obama crack than anything else that you've said
Just to comment on #4. Blowers and Turbochargers BOTH create heat in the intake charge when compressing air....it's a natural byproduct of the event. The compression of the air causes the air to heat up. Now, The efficiency of either the blower or the turbo is the difference of how much that air is "supposed" to heat up and the "actual" temperature it increases. Either one can have poor efficiency and can cause high intake temps. Like it has been said NUMEROUS times, either setup will get you where you want.....as long as they are set up PROPERLY.
Oh and....the exhaust gas never actually touches the intake charge, so I really don't know where you were going with that. The heat that is transferred is very minimal, compared to the heat made from the compression itself. You are the one who said it yourself "let my ignorance die", but for some reason....you keep posting.