Dewey

iTrader: (1)

i like to argue
if others keep posting, so shall I

Dewey

iTrader: (1)

just like he said, compression is compression.

DanZ28

iTrader: (5)

Lol! I like your posts . Don't worry, there's only a handfull of people in here that know what they're talking about anyway. We're all ignorant to you learn..

reamo04

iTrader: (9)

How much are we talking



Anyways, it really depends on the setup. You can make a blower faster than a turbo, and you can make a turbo faster than a blower. Now, my turbo vs. a d1 (not a d1sc), the d1 would be slightly faster for my given setup right now, but my turbo will make more power until i change a few things, then the setup will be geared more towards the turbo and the turbo will be faster. Changing my gears, tires, etc is actually the reason i was looking at getting rid of my turbo kit and getting a YSi or a F1 blower although my turbo will make similar power.

As far as spool time, any decent stall (in an auto) will virtually take spool time away. From the time my converter flashes til the time I am at full boost is no more than a second and a half, and on the line I can build boost rather easily.

Both are good, it just depends what you are doing with it, if i was building an autocross car, i would go with a blower.

The blower setups cost more than what i have into my turbo kit, but the turbo kit is also a lot more labor intensive (building headers, crossover, etc).

I have had a ride in, and driven a f1a 03 cobra, that he switched to twin 57's. Power wise he was about only about 15hp less on the twins, but he also changed heads and added cams but had less boost. the procharger he had stock heads and stock cam with ton more boost.

bboyferal

iTrader: (9)

lol, I read a few times already that a centrifugal supercharger has instant boost upon acceleration whereas an efficiently spec'd turbocharger makes full boost lower in the rpm range BUT lags in its spool upon acceleration... Usually it's the supercharger guys saying this of course...

Then they'll say, "But I can launch at any rpm or go down a gear to hit high boost."

I guess these guys have never heard of brake-boosting from a roll or 2-steps on the drag strip... A turbo LS1 car CAN (potentially, with the right setup and technique that is to say) leave at full boost, at any rpm over 3k, in any gear, dig or roll... How many centrifugally supercharged LS1's can do that?

More for the turbo cars... With anti-lag software/tunes, a turbo car can even KEEP THE BOOST BETWEEN SHIFTS to go into the next gear at full boost with NO NEED TO SPOOL AGAIN... How many SC'd cars can do that?

Anyway, I'm a little biased on the matter obviously, but the truth is the smartest people in this thread, and I agree with them, are the ones quickly pointing out what the fastest LS1 cars run, and they are not always turbocharged as some people make it seem... Lots of ways to skin a cat.

TS6

iTrader: (41)

Again, I will leave in 3rd gear at 10" of vacuum, not downshift, and walk your turbo car. Maybe IF you brake boost, use a 2 step, blah blah blah, you could hang. Of course, I can do that too, and you lose again.

Hmmm, my blower car doesn't drop hardly any boost between gears....no special **** needed.

Bottom line is, IF you know your goal then you can make an educated decision. If your goal is to only go mid/upper 9's, there is no reason to go turbo on an F body. I've owned turbo cars, for the record. All that plumbing, heat, possible issues, is not worth it for that power range. Lets be real: I can bolt up a D1SC and keep A/C and all options and not only do it faster and cheaper than a turbo, but when something breaks whats the worst that can happen? I can slip/lose a belt and make no boost. No harm done. Lets say we go turbo: Aside from the nightmare install and likelyhood of losing some accessories (A/C, etc), the potential problems are large in quanity. There are a number of things that can cause an overboost, bad wastegate, burnt/cracked/loose vacuum hoses, misadjusted boost controller or wastegate, etc. If and when a D1SC head unit fails, it will need fixed. If and when your turbo fails, it will need to be fixed and depending on how it failed may have sent some debris in your motor. Vice versa, if you hurt the motor with a procharger the head unit is fine, whereas you can easily hurt the turbo. BTDT.

There are other things too. Lets say you hurt the head unit; with a turbo, you are down until its fixed. With a procharger, slap a filter on the TB and away you go (with possible tune adjustment). Wanna go faster? Swapping head units on the ATI setup takes minutes, whereas changing turbos can be a pain and many turbo kits won't support large frame turbos.

Like I said, there's a place for both units. If I was trying to go low 8's or high 7's I would definitely go turbo, albeit a custom fabbed setup. There is absolutely no reason to go turbo on a 9 second car (unless you happen to own a fab shop and can do it yourself for cheap). Just my opinion, but having been down both roads, at least I'm not talking out my ***.

MY99TAWS6

iTrader: (3)

Not quite following the complexity arguement for turbos versus supers. Supers usually have intercoolers and cold side piping. they don't have to be hooked to the exhaust manifolds .And some like ati don't have separate oil lines or water lines. Don't see a couple of drains and water lines as huge complexity. Even setups that run a scavenger pump are not that complex. Turbos need wastegates and blow offs are good ideas.
Again pretty simple devices and normally very reliable.

I have also personally owned dozens of turbo cars mostly dsms..Almost all of them had well over 100,000 miles,many on original turbo. Some had turbos fail from age and haven't had one hurt the engine. Some have had engines fail and still not hurt the turbos. Not saying it never happens but would think if a procharger came apart it could also put stuff thru the engine.

I have also been in and driven procharged cars and would not make a blanket statement how you can beat any turbo car with procharger at a 2000 rpm punch. As was just said any smart driver would gear down and could possibly hit 15psi or more boost by doing so.
Procharger is not full boost at 3500 rpm.Maybe half of its full boost. And thats if you gear down also. While it has no lag it still has time to build to full lag. since its based on rpm.

And belts can still be a pain. If have to buy an SDCE setup just read they are 750 bucks? or cog setup they I assume are also not cheap? Prochargers are not cheap anymore. Heck a single turbo setup can be done pretty cheaply on f body. Easier to fab up a single setup than a super setup. Local guy has fabed up third gen..master power turbo was like 800 bucks. ebay manifolds, ebay intercooler, gate and blow off not even sure what make they are and he hit 11.23 at 126 mph last season and will easily be 10s this season. Local guy is running his procharged third gen and turning 13.5 at 102 on his 305 . 305 is near stock so thats decent time. Stock was 15.0 forget the mph.

Supers and turbos both can work excellent. At the track and on the street.

quicksilverado

iTrader: (8)

[QUOTE=TS6;11477379]Again, I will leave in 3rd gear at 10" of vacuum, not downshift, and walk your turbo car. Maybe IF you brake boost, use a 2 step, blah blah blah, you could hang. Of course, I can do that too, and you lose again.

You do realize if properly setup turbo can be deadly on the street. 20 mph and over all I need to do is go wot throttle and have full boost as soon as the tranny down shifts. My tq converter is only a 2800 so it is nothing radical, and gets nearly the same mpg as when it was stock. This is not possibly with a centrifical S/C and a low stalling tq conv. On a large turbo for track use there will be alot of lag with turbos, but there are a number of cars on the forum that are setup for street use also. It comes down to what you prefer more than which is the better option.

bboyferal

iTrader: (9)

Special ****? LOL, foot on the brake watch boost hit, honk it off, and go... Ooooohhh... Special. lol

I still lose? Then it has nothing to do with being turbocharged... You just make more power and weigh less... Duh.


That because you have a belt still spinning the supercharger, you know, that belt that's leeching off your motor's power.

Wastegate failures? Wow, you make that stuff sound common. OH, since you mentioned exhaust flow valves... You can adjust boost on a turbo car from inside the car and from under the hood.

Hmmm... I have AC, PS, etc... Yeah, there are alot of kits that don't give anything up... Not a big deal.

No one said you are talking out of your ***, but you are preaching nothing new to me, an assumption I'll reasonably make since you quoted me. I already posted,

Don't preach to the choir.

bboyferal

iTrader: (9)

Ding Ding Ding!

DanZ28

iTrader: (5)

TS6

iTrader: (41)

I have read many of your posts, and I can tell you don't know half as much as you think you do.

I only have half my boost at 3500? Have you ever owned a procharged car?

I never said "any procharged car will beat any turbo car", I said that a properly set up ati system will have almost no lag and will respond faster than a turbo car (without brake boosting, 2 step, etc).

You don't see the complexity of a turbo setup? Really? Wow. My Procharger is mounted to the engine with a simple bracket. It has ONE pipe hooked to the engine. That is all. Your turbo is hooked to the exhaust, intake, oil, and water. If that doesn't sound more complex then I give up.

I don't have an SDCE setup. Its a basic ATI kit with a good intercooler. As shown by some members here, its all you need for most quick street cars. Take your "1000" hp car, for example; what does it run? I bet money I go faster with at least 300 less horsepower. Why? Combo, its all in the setup.

MY99TAWS6

iTrader: (3)

So you are telling me you have full boost at 3500 with your procharger? Lets see your dyno graph or log showing boost versus rpm.

An auto with good stall turbo car is also going to spool up fast when you nail it .An m6 from downshifting ditto. Unless guy has monster turbos.I believe in reasonable size turbos. I have to log my car soon but would think can hit fulll boost at 3000 in third gear. Car is m6 for a couple more months.If I want more boost off the line can use my lingenfelter two step and antilag or brake boost if rolling.

Your procharger still needs time and rpm to build full boost. Now if we are talking roots or twin screw bit different story .The fact centrifugals are progressive is one reason they can help in the traction department. Just like ramping up the turbo by rpm or gear can help them in the traction department.

I have been in two ati procharged cars lt1 and ls1. One had ps1c and the other had d1sc. The d1sc was near stock ,had headers,it was auto and pretty doggy until higher up in the rpm band. A stall of course would have helped.And think it had 3.23 gears which also didn't help. The lt1 was six speed ,3.42s and also near stock. It had more gearing than the auto and went better but he lost repeatedly to buddies heads/cam/header bolt on ls1 . He lost so badly doing 1/4 mile and punches from various speeds he went home and cranked up his belt tension and took out his engine from guess extra pound or so off boost. It was stock bottom lt1. It was not much faster than my cam/header/bolt on ls1. This also pissed him off.
He was running the p1sc with 8ish.
I am not saying that prochargers suck or anything .In my poll am trying to get info and likely wll be buying one for my 96z.

But think you have blinders on .
Turbo install is usually more intensive and takes longer than your super. Not really sure why that matters much as once its done its done ,so what if it takes a few more hours to install. I had my engine out so easy to tap oil pan for the returns.Ati has oil line on their old pb600. Simple to put fitting for oil into the block off the oil filter housing they are alreaedy there for oil cooler . Ditto on water lines simple to run those. And your procharger also has intercooler piping like the turbo. And inlet pipes are simple on the turbos . And the turbos hang directly off the custom exhaust manifolds so don't see any big complexity there.
Tuning no big deal am switching to 3 bar right away but its running just fine on maf for engine break in period.

As for your car running faster with 300 or something less hp that is stupid comment. And don't run full power all the time especially on the street and don't much care how fast the car is on the street, not much of a street racer. Too old and smart for that.

I will the odd time run buddies out of town on deserted highways ealry on sunday morning type thing. Wil bolt on some et street radials for that obviously cant' hook up that much power on street tires and don't run et streets full time.

And main thing with turbo is more power is a simple touch of the button away. Dont' have to go out and change my pulleys. And can ramp boost in from 7psi to 20psi or whatever by rpm,gear,lots of choices.

Also you will see in sig have spray for the car. Direct port system. Even with small shot you can pretty much instant spool up ,supercooling effect from the nitrous and instant torque at the rpm you hit the nitrous at. So if the nitrous comes on at 2000 rpm on the window switch there is no waiting till 3000 to spool up.Which with my 3400 yank there wouldn't be much lag anyway.

I guess the main thing is you are trying to argue the supercharger is superior to the turbo. Or are trying to argue your combo or car is faster than mine or something with 300 less hp. I am saying supers and turbos are more close to equal and thats why I want both on my various cars. And my car at full power would be 1300 engine hp or so. Nitrous can do 300 hp. But its all numbers and don't plan on running nitrous kit or turbos at full power except maybe on the dyno. 1000 engine combined from small shot of spray and the snails is plenty enough for me. And if can hit 9s or very low 10s at 13x something for mph will be plenty happy. It is 99% street car.

bravoboost

Well, u asked so I told. Your welcome.

bravoboost

TWIN TURBOS dumdumdum ... far greater possibilites with a turbo setup IMHO. Unless your rich, when your spending money like this, your not looking for a mediocre solution to your power demands, your after the best you can afford that can do all that ur after.

My goals are 1000hp on pump/meth,
hardly audible over stock (minus my tials)
superior dd manners and MPG (via reducing boost)
11's pretty easily @ about 70% of car/driver ability
wreck 95% of what i run into on the highway.
and do all this reliably with only minor maintenence.

Personally these goals seem far more obtainable with turbos