1500hp Boosted fuel system: Will this work? (New Idea)
1500hp Boosted fuel system: Will this work? (New Idea) Hey guys, I'm trying to sort out my fuel system as we speak. I'm running a VA Speed built warhawk headed Ls7 and a cog drive F2 Procharger. Going for 1500crank hp. I already have 160lb injectors as I was planning on running e85 only. After talking with magnafuel, they say there's no way I can run just one pump to support that hp so I'd have to run a smaller one, hobbs switch and a large pump. (4301+4303) -since it's a street car.
That got me thinking, if I have to run one small pump on low rpms/boost and one larger one, why don't I hook the smaller pump to the stock tank and run 93oct pump gas and have a the large pump hooked to a separate fuel cell with C16? Given, both the pumps would be Y'd together before hitting the rails so it would be a mixture of 93/C16 BUT the bigger pump would flow alot more and whatever the mixture is-should be consistent since each pump has a steady flow rate.
The fuel exiting the rails will be a mixture of 93/C16 and will return to the stock tank-so the stock tank octane would steadily increase if in high boost-no big deal.
During tuning, I'd have the engine tuned in on the small pump and 93oct only to see where it maxes out. Say ~ 15psi. Then we'd add in the hobbs switch and larger pump on C16 to finish things out >15psi. This would mean alterations in the stock tank octane would not affect the tune (it would only be more resistant to detonation over std 93oct).
That got me thinking, if I have to run one small pump on low rpms/boost and one larger one, why don't I hook the smaller pump to the stock tank and run 93oct pump gas and have a the large pump hooked to a separate fuel cell with C16? Given, both the pumps would be Y'd together before hitting the rails so it would be a mixture of 93/C16 BUT the bigger pump would flow alot more and whatever the mixture is-should be consistent since each pump has a steady flow rate.
The fuel exiting the rails will be a mixture of 93/C16 and will return to the stock tank-so the stock tank octane would steadily increase if in high boost-no big deal.
During tuning, I'd have the engine tuned in on the small pump and 93oct only to see where it maxes out. Say ~ 15psi. Then we'd add in the hobbs switch and larger pump on C16 to finish things out >15psi. This would mean alterations in the stock tank octane would not affect the tune (it would only be more resistant to detonation over std 93oct).
The only thing is you would have to plumb it in a way so that the two fuels would mix before it got to the fuel rails, otherwise if you had each tank plumbed to its own fuel rail, I would think one rail would be getting more of the 93 octane and the other rail would be getting more of the good stuff. This is if I understood you right.
Oops , I reread your plan, it seems like it would work.
Oops , I reread your plan, it seems like it would work.
To clear things up: each pump would be Y'd shortly after the pump output into a single -12 that goes to the front of the car. Then, there would be another Y that splits the -12 into two -10s that go into the front of each rail so mix that was in the single -12 would be the same mix going into each rail. The back of the rails would each have a -8 that Ys into a FPR then a single -10 return to the stock tank.
FormerVendor
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,444
Likes: 2
From: WWW.SPEEDINC.COM
Too much time for the C16 to reach the injectors, it could be well damaged by then.
Also, if you only return to the primary tank it would be easy to overfill/overflow that tank.
Best option for dual fuel is BS3 and staged injection.
Also, if you only return to the primary tank it would be easy to overfill/overflow that tank.
Best option for dual fuel is BS3 and staged injection.
Launching!
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 202
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Yes, this works. It will work, it has worked before.
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/fab...el-system.html
But honestly I would just run e85 100% of the time...
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/fab...el-system.html
But honestly I would just run e85 100% of the time...
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Or how about this, I've always wondered if this would work or if it has been done:
Just run two "big" pumps but don't hook the rails together. Run each side independently. 2 pumps, 2 regulators, etc.
I suppose possible negatives would be heating of the fuel, amp draw, noise, and cost.
Just thinking out loud.
Just run two "big" pumps but don't hook the rails together. Run each side independently. 2 pumps, 2 regulators, etc.
I suppose possible negatives would be heating of the fuel, amp draw, noise, and cost.
Just thinking out loud.
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The Buick thread shows that it does work, but why not just run E85 all the time?
I too would be afraid of not knowing the exact octane/mix of what is actually at the injectors.
Are you wanting to beable to switch to high boost on the fly? If not, you could always pull over, run 2 valves, one on the feed, and one on the return line, and switch what lines are "active" and always return pump gas to the pump gas cell, and race gas to the race gas cell. The only other consideration is that you would want to flip the racegas pump/line first, and run it for about 15sec to clear the lines of pump gas, then flip the return valve, that way your C16 stays pure C16.
If you wanted to switch while driving, a check valve on both feed lines before the Y, and a manual valve on the return side, and just switch what pump you want to run, C16 will be returned to the pump gas tank until you move the valve on what tank the fuel is returned to. Atleast that way you could atleast someone stay in motion and change fuel type, but you still need to wait 10-15sec to get all the pump gas out of the feed line.
I too would be afraid of not knowing the exact octane/mix of what is actually at the injectors.
Are you wanting to beable to switch to high boost on the fly? If not, you could always pull over, run 2 valves, one on the feed, and one on the return line, and switch what lines are "active" and always return pump gas to the pump gas cell, and race gas to the race gas cell. The only other consideration is that you would want to flip the racegas pump/line first, and run it for about 15sec to clear the lines of pump gas, then flip the return valve, that way your C16 stays pure C16.
If you wanted to switch while driving, a check valve on both feed lines before the Y, and a manual valve on the return side, and just switch what pump you want to run, C16 will be returned to the pump gas tank until you move the valve on what tank the fuel is returned to. Atleast that way you could atleast someone stay in motion and change fuel type, but you still need to wait 10-15sec to get all the pump gas out of the feed line.
FormerVendor
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,444
Likes: 2
From: WWW.SPEEDINC.COM
The buick setup is not the same as what the op describes, it switches completely from one fuel system to another rather than just mixing fuel together in the same line.
I ran the BS3/staged injection on my old LT1 car. Used 93 octane with the primary injectors and C16 with the secondary injectors. 2nd set of injectors turn on when the 1st set reach a programmed duty cycle (at which point they run together).
I ran the BS3/staged injection on my old LT1 car. Used 93 octane with the primary injectors and C16 with the secondary injectors. 2nd set of injectors turn on when the 1st set reach a programmed duty cycle (at which point they run together).
How C16 can you buy for the price of another complete fuel system + BS3? That's like $5,000 isn't it ? If you are really going to daily drive the car, run the pump gas for easy daily driving and then pump it out and put in race gas for the track. Or just buy the second pump and run E85.
The buick thread does switch completely and is pretty costly to do.
I like the idea. Infact Im doing something similar to my 3rd gen.
Mine isnt done yet, but its getting there. Im using a nascar style front cover with the distributor drive. Well, Im not running a distributor I just wanted the fuel pump eccentric for a mechanical pump. Race pumps makes high pressure high volume mechanical pumps that can be used with any fuel or alcohol.
The ls1 pump is actually a modified sb ford pump. They rate them on gas up to 2500 hp...which by calculation is on teh low side.
Anyways, Im using a race pump for the alcohol, power/second stage of injectors. Two seperate fuel systems. 1 st system is just a stock set up with a 340 pump and 8 60 ln injectors. I can run gas or e85....on this stage since its basically just for driving around. The second system,, is the mechanical race pump, from another tank, with no return line (thats how race pumps says to do it) so thats saves a few $$ too. Then I run a second set of 160 lb inejctors with either e85 or straight m100.
The race pump is quiet, requires no electrical draw, and since its only for power, the fuel pressure will be stable (an issue at low rpm sometimes) but not used as the power fuel and 2500-3000 rpm and higher.
To control staged injection, Im using a mega squirt 2.
Cost wise it worked out like this.
340 pump 120$
mega squirt 2 $560 with harness
160 ln injec $400
60 lb injec $300
mods to intake $200
mech race pump $320
reg $200
front cover and cam extention $400
Thats about $2500 plus lines.....for a streetble fuel system to support 1500 + hp that is reliable, with the ecm and wiring.
Drive it on 87.....and dont change a thing to make a pass at the track.
I like the idea. Infact Im doing something similar to my 3rd gen.
Mine isnt done yet, but its getting there. Im using a nascar style front cover with the distributor drive. Well, Im not running a distributor I just wanted the fuel pump eccentric for a mechanical pump. Race pumps makes high pressure high volume mechanical pumps that can be used with any fuel or alcohol.
The ls1 pump is actually a modified sb ford pump. They rate them on gas up to 2500 hp...which by calculation is on teh low side.
Anyways, Im using a race pump for the alcohol, power/second stage of injectors. Two seperate fuel systems. 1 st system is just a stock set up with a 340 pump and 8 60 ln injectors. I can run gas or e85....on this stage since its basically just for driving around. The second system,, is the mechanical race pump, from another tank, with no return line (thats how race pumps says to do it) so thats saves a few $$ too. Then I run a second set of 160 lb inejctors with either e85 or straight m100.
The race pump is quiet, requires no electrical draw, and since its only for power, the fuel pressure will be stable (an issue at low rpm sometimes) but not used as the power fuel and 2500-3000 rpm and higher.
To control staged injection, Im using a mega squirt 2.
Cost wise it worked out like this.
340 pump 120$
mega squirt 2 $560 with harness
160 ln injec $400
60 lb injec $300
mods to intake $200
mech race pump $320
reg $200
front cover and cam extention $400
Thats about $2500 plus lines.....for a streetble fuel system to support 1500 + hp that is reliable, with the ecm and wiring.
Drive it on 87.....and dont change a thing to make a pass at the track.
Thats not true... people have made 1600hp on pump E85. Yeah seems like alot of work, im going to run two pump with my E85 setup. Acually Crazy Chris with his vette did 1100whp or so with a pretty simple fuel setup on E85.
Yes and no. In colder winter regions, say...... Colorado, during winter E85 drops down to about 50% ethanol to help with cold starts. During late spring, summer, and early fall it is 85ish percent ethanol.
you just need to know what your really getting. They are not required to relabel the pump when they dispense e70. So in some regions, the consistency varies. Since it aborbs water, the consistency changes if you dont get it from a high volume station also. Thats probably the biggest problem. Around my area now, I probably have 5 stations with in 2 miles of my house, so they are selling more and more out here. It seems like 50% of the stations have it now. In some places it doesnt sell, so it sits there abosbing water, etc....
I was entertaining the thought simple from an availability standpoint. I do have 3 e85 stations in town but they are all 15+ miles away. I want to take a few road trips with the car and don't want to be stranded somewhere looking for an e85 station.
I already have an ls7 intake=no 16 injectors. I already have 160lb injectors and AEM driver box and an extensively modified ls1 harness to work with the rx7=NO BS3.
I was thinking mechanical pump+e85 for awhile but I am running all accessories inluding AC and have a cog pulley on the crank so there is nowhere to mount it. I talked with Magnafuel and Aeromotive about driving their mechanical pumps off the tensioner pulley but they said it has no bearing and can't withstand ANY sideload.
I'm just trying to reason out which option would be best. 93 pump with a seperate C16 tank would be most convenient. E85 only is doable but due to availability, more difficult to live with and enjoy a street car.
Being that the big pump and C16 would only be "on" at say 4000rpms+ I won't have to worry about the stock tank overflowing as if I'm over 4K, I won't be in it long with that power on the street lol!
I already have an ls7 intake=no 16 injectors. I already have 160lb injectors and AEM driver box and an extensively modified ls1 harness to work with the rx7=NO BS3.
I was thinking mechanical pump+e85 for awhile but I am running all accessories inluding AC and have a cog pulley on the crank so there is nowhere to mount it. I talked with Magnafuel and Aeromotive about driving their mechanical pumps off the tensioner pulley but they said it has no bearing and can't withstand ANY sideload.
I'm just trying to reason out which option would be best. 93 pump with a seperate C16 tank would be most convenient. E85 only is doable but due to availability, more difficult to live with and enjoy a street car.
Being that the big pump and C16 would only be "on" at say 4000rpms+ I won't have to worry about the stock tank overflowing as if I'm over 4K, I won't be in it long with that power on the street lol!