1500hp Boosted fuel system: Will this work? (New Idea)
06-08-2009, 06:12 PM
#21
FormerVendor
I drew something like this out a few years ago before I did staged injection which was basically your idea but the "Y" was right before the rails and also had check valves and a return line diverter valve on a time delay relay so the proper fuel would return to it's respective tanks.
I actually bench tested the setup with a set of fuel rails, a set of 8 injectors running static and dyed fuel. I don't remember the exact time but I believe it was several seconds before the last injector finally cleared out the base fuel and was spraying the dyed fuel once I switched pumps.
Since I figured that was more than enough time to reach full boost and blow something up I went with the staged injection which was very reliable.
06-08-2009, 06:35 PM
#22
Thanks for your input. I followed your TT LT1 w/BS3 and 16 injector build back in the day. Very nice.
So you're saying it won't get there fast enough... How about this: Stock tank with smaller pump with a single line that goes to front then Y's into each rail. The big pump on C16 will have a single line that goes to front then Y's RIGHT before the rails. The rails will have an additional Y on the front of each one. (A Y on each rail and a Y in each line coming from the back). So as soon as the big pump starts up, C16 will be entering RIGHT at the front of the rails or I could space it back a few inches to allow a more uniform fuel blend. BUT the point is that the C16 would hit instantaneously.
See crude attachment below.
Last edited by 93formto98T/A; 06-08-2009 at 06:46 PM.
06-08-2009, 09:46 PM
#23
FormerVendor
You can do a bench test as I did to see for yourself but even how you have it drawn out I would bet anything that you could reach full boost before the secondary pump turned on, built pressure and brought C16 to the rear cylinders.
It needs to be instant, and the only way to do that is with 2 sets of injectors. I suppose you could run a "Y" off of each fuel injector with check valves and such so the C16 was introduced directly at the injector but that would be rather expensive and there would still be some lag before the injector was spraying pure race fuel.
It needs to be instant, and the only way to do that is with 2 sets of injectors. I suppose you could run a "Y" off of each fuel injector with check valves and such so the C16 was introduced directly at the injector but that would be rather expensive and there would still be some lag before the injector was spraying pure race fuel.
06-08-2009, 10:19 PM
#24
Understood. The way around that would be to use the system I just mentioned and introduce the C16 early to ensure it would be at the injector before it's actually needed. Say the smaller pump (4301) can support 17lbs at 4500rpm on 93-(determined by dyno tuning with small pump and 93 only). I could set the hobbs switch to 13lbs so by 17lbs it would be in full swing.
I understand what you're saying about the time aspect. I can place a "primer" button on the dash to prime the larger pump after startup to make sure the lines are full and ready to go.
I understand what you're saying about the time aspect. I can place a "primer" button on the dash to prime the larger pump after startup to make sure the lines are full and ready to go.
06-08-2009, 11:02 PM
#25
FormerVendor
Fwiw 13psi to 17psi at WOT could take less than 1/2 sec.
Even if you turned the race fuel pump on at 0.1psi boost you would be at peak boost before every injector was spraying C16.
Again, feel free to try it, just know the theory behind it has been tested and boost response will far out accelerate the response of any secondary fuel system. (with the exception of running 2 sets of injectors)
It may be possible to run 2 injectors per cyl with the composite LS7 intake manifold. You could make aluminum adapters which kept the primary injectors line of site and secondary injectors "Y"'d into the side of the adapter. May not be the best solution but it is possible.
06-08-2009, 11:20 PM
#26
Well you can certainly try it but I'm just trying to help you avoid a costly mistake. Trust me I love the idea and I wanted to do it myself but it just isn't safe.
Again, feel free to try it, just know the theory behind it has been tested and boost response will far out accelerate the response of any secondary fuel system. (with the exception of running 2 sets of injectors)
Again, feel free to try it, just know the theory behind it has been tested and boost response will far out accelerate the response of any secondary fuel system. (with the exception of running 2 sets of injectors)
That's what I wanted to know: 1. has it been tried 2. does it work/is it safe Looks like the answer is no and no. I have some big $$ into my setup already and won't be doing anything risky with it. I plan to get a conservative tune and drive it for the next 5-10yrs with only regular maintenance. I don't have the $$ to do this radical fuel setup properly (sheetmetal intake with 16 injector ports and BS3 setup= ~$6-7K). Looks like it's back to the e85 plan. No biggie, just wanted to explore other options.
So the setup will be the same except both pumps will pull from the stock tank with e85 and there will be one Y to join them in the back and one Y to separate them in the front before the rails.
06-09-2009, 02:00 AM
#27
06-09-2009, 01:48 PM
#28
Has anyone ever done something like the malibu guy with two sets of injectors wired into the stock pcm? The way he has it done makes it sound like it would work well. I'd considered before the possibility of running a second stock PCM to control fueling to an extra set of 8 injectors, but if you could do it the way he has set up you could avoid all of the hassle. Having the second set of injectors wired on a relay doesn't seem that difficult. Is this a viable option?
06-09-2009, 03:45 PM
#29
Has anyone ever done something like the malibu guy with two sets of injectors wired into the stock pcm? The way he has it done makes it sound like it would work well. I'd considered before the possibility of running a second stock PCM to control fueling to an extra set of 8 injectors, but if you could do it the way he has set up you could avoid all of the hassle. Having the second set of injectors wired on a relay doesn't seem that difficult. Is this a viable option?
06-09-2009, 06:00 PM
#30
What I am planning on doing for my 93 is running one set of 8 of the new Ford 80 lb injectors (rated at 39 psi). Then, using a secondary controller to run an extra 4 of them. The injectors are high impedance so there is no need for a converter box (money savings) and they flow around 101lbs / hour at 58.5 PSI.
There's a company called split second that makes a secondary injector controller box that will control four high impedance injectors and has a tuning system included with it. I believe it is around $350. I then just plan on running something like the Wilson V force throttle body and block off four of the injector bungs. I saw FAST is coming out with one similar soon, but from their picture it is difficult to tell how many injector bungs are in it.
The rest of the fuel system will be one walbro 255 in the stock tank holding 93 octane, a standalone tank in the spare tire area with two walbro 255s holding 116, and 1/2 steel tubing as the feed and return for both tanks. The fuel lines and fittings are only around $250, the pumps, $300, and the second tank should be roughly a couple hundred dollars. All of this will be done on the stock PCM with the standalone controlling the other 4 injectors. My total cost should be around $1100 + the injectors, throttle body, and regulators.
It was posted earlier in this thread.
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/fab...el-system.html
http://www.turbomalibu.com/dualfuelsystem.htm
I like the sound of this idea too. I think it is on the expensive side, but with the compatability of running alcohol it is nice.
There's a company called split second that makes a secondary injector controller box that will control four high impedance injectors and has a tuning system included with it. I believe it is around $350. I then just plan on running something like the Wilson V force throttle body and block off four of the injector bungs. I saw FAST is coming out with one similar soon, but from their picture it is difficult to tell how many injector bungs are in it.
The rest of the fuel system will be one walbro 255 in the stock tank holding 93 octane, a standalone tank in the spare tire area with two walbro 255s holding 116, and 1/2 steel tubing as the feed and return for both tanks. The fuel lines and fittings are only around $250, the pumps, $300, and the second tank should be roughly a couple hundred dollars. All of this will be done on the stock PCM with the standalone controlling the other 4 injectors. My total cost should be around $1100 + the injectors, throttle body, and regulators.
It was posted earlier in this thread.
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/fab...el-system.html
http://www.turbomalibu.com/dualfuelsystem.htm
The buick thread does switch completely and is pretty costly to do.
I like the idea. Infact Im doing something similar to my 3rd gen.
Mine isnt done yet, but its getting there. Im using a nascar style front cover with the distributor drive. Well, Im not running a distributor I just wanted the fuel pump eccentric for a mechanical pump. Race pumps makes high pressure high volume mechanical pumps that can be used with any fuel or alcohol.
The ls1 pump is actually a modified sb ford pump. They rate them on gas up to 2500 hp...which by calculation is on teh low side.
Anyways, Im using a race pump for the alcohol, power/second stage of injectors. Two seperate fuel systems. 1 st system is just a stock set up with a 340 pump and 8 60 ln injectors. I can run gas or e85....on this stage since its basically just for driving around. The second system,, is the mechanical race pump, from another tank, with no return line (thats how race pumps says to do it) so thats saves a few $$ too. Then I run a second set of 160 lb inejctors with either e85 or straight m100.
The race pump is quiet, requires no electrical draw, and since its only for power, the fuel pressure will be stable (an issue at low rpm sometimes) but not used as the power fuel and 2500-3000 rpm and higher.
To control staged injection, Im using a mega squirt 2.
Cost wise it worked out like this.
340 pump 120$
mega squirt 2 $560 with harness
160 ln injec $400
60 lb injec $300
mods to intake $200
mech race pump $320
reg $200
front cover and cam extention $400
Thats about $2500 plus lines.....for a streetble fuel system to support 1500 + hp that is reliable, with the ecm and wiring.
Drive it on 87.....and dont change a thing to make a pass at the track.
I like the idea. Infact Im doing something similar to my 3rd gen.
Mine isnt done yet, but its getting there. Im using a nascar style front cover with the distributor drive. Well, Im not running a distributor I just wanted the fuel pump eccentric for a mechanical pump. Race pumps makes high pressure high volume mechanical pumps that can be used with any fuel or alcohol.
The ls1 pump is actually a modified sb ford pump. They rate them on gas up to 2500 hp...which by calculation is on teh low side.
Anyways, Im using a race pump for the alcohol, power/second stage of injectors. Two seperate fuel systems. 1 st system is just a stock set up with a 340 pump and 8 60 ln injectors. I can run gas or e85....on this stage since its basically just for driving around. The second system,, is the mechanical race pump, from another tank, with no return line (thats how race pumps says to do it) so thats saves a few $$ too. Then I run a second set of 160 lb inejctors with either e85 or straight m100.
The race pump is quiet, requires no electrical draw, and since its only for power, the fuel pressure will be stable (an issue at low rpm sometimes) but not used as the power fuel and 2500-3000 rpm and higher.
To control staged injection, Im using a mega squirt 2.
Cost wise it worked out like this.
340 pump 120$
mega squirt 2 $560 with harness
160 ln injec $400
60 lb injec $300
mods to intake $200
mech race pump $320
reg $200
front cover and cam extention $400
Thats about $2500 plus lines.....for a streetble fuel system to support 1500 + hp that is reliable, with the ecm and wiring.
Drive it on 87.....and dont change a thing to make a pass at the track.
06-09-2009, 07:13 PM
#31
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If you price it out.....i think youll find its pretty cheap.
if you go electric pumps....youll be at 2000 pretty easy.
2 big electric pumps are 1500$......or 4 340's plus the tank mods and stuff to get close to the same flow would be in the same area. If your building from scratch, you need a haraness and pcm and if use the aftermarket harness and stock pcm thats 600......and intake is 300 for ls6, about the same for a vic jr. . Injectors....all the same, if you need more fuel, you have to pay for em somewhere.
And the mega squirt , well its capable of staged injection and a stand alone for about 2600 less then a staged bs3. The staged bs3 is 3200 or so.
if you go electric pumps....youll be at 2000 pretty easy.
2 big electric pumps are 1500$......or 4 340's plus the tank mods and stuff to get close to the same flow would be in the same area. If your building from scratch, you need a haraness and pcm and if use the aftermarket harness and stock pcm thats 600......and intake is 300 for ls6, about the same for a vic jr. . Injectors....all the same, if you need more fuel, you have to pay for em somewhere.
And the mega squirt , well its capable of staged injection and a stand alone for about 2600 less then a staged bs3. The staged bs3 is 3200 or so.
06-09-2009, 08:00 PM
#32
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You don't have to have a sheetmetal manifold to do 16 injectors. You could still use a GMPP manifold and have the second set of injector bosses welded in. That is reasonably inexpensive compared to the sheetmetal -- been there done that as far as decision processes.
