LS6427

iTrader: (2)

You might want to start at the top of this thread and read it again....the thread title begins with...."MAX effort...." FI build.

Also, nobody is talking about 800 RWHP......we're talking about MAX effort BIG POWER upwards of 1,800-2,000 HP. Its right here in the thread.

And thats the whole problem really.......people pointing out ONE GUY. If there were 30 guys with 1600 hp stock blocks running around this entire subject would be different. But there's not. Plus, that motor failed. If it were an iron 6 bolt block, it would still be running fine.

I never said a 4 bolt per cylinder block couldn't handle "big power", but you are pushing the limits and riding the ragged edge by going 1,200 RWHP and above with stock blocks and 4 bolts per. cyl....as opposed to a 6 bolt per cylinder iron block. FACT...that cannot be argued with.

I know someone with an 1,100 RWHP 4 bolt per cylinder LSx...its doing ok so far. But its near the limits, one little detonation and BYE-BYE. A 6 bolt per cylinder block, 1,100 RWHP would just be getting started and have ALOT more room for more power, like another 1,000+.

Use an iron 6 bolt per cylinder block....and you are far surperior in strength then any aluminum 4 or 6 bolt block. Again, a FACT that cannot be argued.

.

elias_799

iTrader: (8)

i have never said that a block that uses 4 bolt heads will be just as strong as a block that uses 6 bolt heads even if you get it o ringed. i was comparing the aluminium ls2 to an iron lq9/lq4 and the numbers people put out with them. i mentioned the o ringing method as a small cure for the heads lifting on a block that uses 4 bolt heads.

if you are going to compare the lsx block to an aluminum block, then you compare it to the warhawk that also uses 6 bolt heads like the lsx block. and as far as i have seen the warhawk block seems to hold up pretty well with no cracks or warping at the 2500hp level. so how you going to argue with that ?
yes the first batch of the warhawk blcok had sleeve problems just like the first re sleeved ls1 motors, and then people learned how to do it properly. and the problem went away.

please show me a ls series block that failed due to weak materiel and not overheating/detonation.

elias_799

iTrader: (8)

and just like you said above, this is a MAX effort build, so saving quite a bit of weigh with an aluminum block would make allot of sense to me. and no a warhawk block will not break at the 2000hp level unless there is some serious problems.

kmracer

iTrader: (1)

you make it sound so simple...

elias_799

iTrader: (8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by elias_799 View Post
first of all it is not just aluminum, it is an alloy and all aluminum alloy blocks have iron sleeves for except for some rare motors that used a special coating.

and yes iron is a stronger materiel the the aluminum alloy used in the ls blocks. but why use the heavier materiel when you can use the lighter materiel and make the same amount of power and save quite a bit of weight without braking anything ?

and what the hell do you mean you can not make big power of 4 bolt heads ? 800whp is quite allot on a block that was designed to have half the amount of that. you want even more ? double o ring the 4 bolt ls2 block and you can make over 1500hp. yes o rining a block is not easy, but it is also not easy to build a 1600hp motor lsx motor without the proper knowledge.

please next time you try to give somebody advice have some actual fact's to back up your claims. as you can see there are a quite a few people that pointed out a guy that has a 1600hp aluminum motor and corvette major has a 2500hp warhawk motor if i am not mistaken


i am not making it sound simple or easy and i have actually stated that is is not easy to make power like that

HOT_RODN99

x2... Both the LSX and warhawk blocks have seen 2000+ hp and have proven their strength. And both are in the two fastest radial LSx cars. So I think it really comes down to how much weight you want on the nose which will probably vary between what kind of car it goes in.

LS6427

iTrader: (2)

All I've really said from the get-go is that iron is stronger than aluminum.

Thats all. That cannot be argued with by anyone. Plus with aluminum, you have sleeve issues to worry about.

If someone was setting out to build a max effort big turbo engine with a goal of say 2,000 hp.....I think it would be a little guided to tell them to use a Warhawk because one guy has done it. Especially when there's the LSX iron block.

And when people are spending that much money on a build....40-50 pounds can be shaved off the LSX block without weakening it one bit, there's a company that does it. Then a the lighter sway bar that saves ~30 pounds or whatever.

Now you have like 35 pounds extra weight. That is meaningless for a 2,000 hp drag car, the difference in ET will be nothing.

What would happen if a 7 second car put a 35 pound weight in it? Its still gonna run that 7.

Plus, one of the guys that has one of those fastest LSx cars....has the LSX iron block. He said the weight helps them keep the nose down. It helps. So the extra weight argument is OUT THE WINDOW in this case. It makes that car faster in the 1/4 mile.

From "Phil99Vette" on the first page.....living proof that the extra weight HELPS. Did you miss this post? Living proof the weight HELPS!!!!!
"Phil99Vette"
If I could run a warhawk or an Aluminum LSx, I'd still run the iron LSx because we still need to add ballast to keep the nose down with the radials. With the modifications we've done to the LSx after 30 passes it looks almost new inside. We've got one issue to deal with but we're confident with the last round of changes we have it licked.

.

elias_799

iTrader: (8)

i am not arguing with you that iron is a stronger meterial. but i am arguing with about one of the points you made on of your first post's saying that an aluminum block can not hold to any serious power. and the warhak block has been to over 2000hp mark without problems many times, and not just by one guy.

and it seems like you only see one side of this (your side) you are happy to quote something that supports your opinion, but when i quote another guy that has an aluminum block with big power, you blindly ignore it and say, OH this is just one guy and he is at the limits and his **** will blow anytime. you got a thick head man, instead of admitting that a warkhawk block can handle the same amount of power as a lsx block after numerous proof that has been given to you , you turn this in to some child's game.

99Z28LS1

iTrader: (4)

this isn't an informational thread anymore. They can both make well over 1k if built and tuned correctly

NRE, VA speed and other companies have proven the Aluminum block can take it, and those same companies have proven the LSx block can take it. no need to dick measure anymore

Big_Bird_WS6

iTrader: (7)

What about a ls ERL block. i thin the ohio boys and a few others have proven those blocks time and time again. they are light and strong. and have a 6bolt option. i know the 6bolt erl block is cheaper then the warhawk blcok. that is why i went ERL

Shawn @ VA Speed

iTrader: (3)

I have been watching this thread for a couple days-i couldn't post anything due to my poor internet connection at our hotel in memphis.

let me post of a couple of facts-just so you guys know,unless it is first hand information that you have gained yourself-it's not knowledge-it's just hearsay.So unless any of you have built a 2000+ hp ls engine you really can't have facts but mearly opinions,so arguing with opinions and not actual data is not helping to answer to OP's question.

fact-both the lsx block and the warhawk block will handle 2000+hp with the proper modifications

fact-neither the lsx or the warhawk will handle 2000hp out of the box without alot of modifications

fact-iron is stronger than aluminum and will have better ring seal which will have less blowby and possibly more power

fact-iron doesn't disappate heat as fast as aluminum-which means you cannot run as much timing leading to less hp

fact-the aluminum block liners are much harder than the iron block leading to better cylinder life from less ring wear

fact- i would rather use a modded ls2 block such as mine or ERL's before using either one of the above mentioned blocks for such a build.

OUTLAWZ RACING

iTrader: (9)

I agree a lsx without a fill in the block and other mods wont see 2k as it is.

z28boysteve

iTrader: (9)

I haven't ever heard of an ERL block, could you elaborate how this would be a more desireable choice? Are these blocks run 1/2 filled? or dry and full fill?

Shawn @ VA Speed

iTrader: (3)

i'm not sure exactly how erl does their blocks,but on our we mill out the entire deck surface and install a billet plate-greatly reinforcing the entire deck surface as well as the top of the sleeves-then we install custom made thick wall ductile iron sleeves-we also do alot of reinforcement in the main area of the block.there are some other details we do as far as oiling and some other reinforcements

z28boysteve

iTrader: (9)

What about the fact that it still has 4 bolts per cylinder? How much is it in comparison to these other blocks? How is the new deck attached?

Shawn @ VA Speed

iTrader: (3)

it has 6 bolts per cylinder,as i said before i owlud use mine over any others out there and the awswer to you last question is-it's attached very well

z28boysteve

iTrader: (9)

guessing that part is proprietary, what's a machined and ready to assemble 427 Block Ready for 6 Bolt LS7 Heads of Choice COST? Can it be made for Warhawk Heads to work as well?

Big_Bird_WS6

iTrader: (7)

shawn. i have a ERL so i know what it looks like. can you post a few pictures for what your deck lloks like after the work?

thanks
d

Quick Carl

Shawn is right in that nothing off the shelf has handled the 2000+ HP without some work. Especially in a car that's twisting, slamming, etc with rigid mounts.

You can check out the ERL blocks on the website here if you haven't seen it.
http://www.erlperformance.com/index....&Itemid=100016

If you look at the Superdeck one info you can see the block uses our patented truss design to make the block extremely strong and a 6 bolt is an option.
Also you can see a comparison of a typical sleeve used in an aluminum block or dry sleeve vs our Superdeck one sleeve. Most others sleeves will only be .060-.090" wall depending on the bore size and may not be the high strength ductile iron.

Just speaking about our ERL blocks and actual experience both Mike and Steve have ran our set-up. They run these cars every weekend with Steve winning Milan the past 2 years and runner-up this year as well as #1 qualifier at the LSX shootout 2 years and compete in the OVOS series, so you can see they aren't garage queens and have tons of passes around 200 MPH @ 3400# ( you do the HP calculation). Each winter they are inspected and freshen up for next season just needing the cylinders touched up and fresh pistons, rings and bearings.

One thing I never see in these comparisons is that making power at that level in a cast iron block usually requires an aluminum rod to handle the shock so that the bearings can live. This can also transmitt into the valve train and create harmonic issues. Where as an aluminum block can run a lower maintainence steel rod (like Mike and Steve's) because the block absorbs the shock.
If you search I believe you will find that the guys with cast iron blocks at that level are running aluminum rods and working to reduce crank, bearing issues.

z28boysteve

iTrader: (9)

I was well aware of the aluminum rods to reduce shock, and also the fact that those rods have a finite life span... I didn't however know that in an aluminum block a steel rod could be utilized! That must save ALOT of maintenance. What does a read to roll 427 block cost from you with 6 bolt provision? Ready to roll meaning requiring NOTHING else to handle 2000 HP and ready to assemble.