New dyno on meth
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Launching!
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From: Chesapeake, Virginia
New dyno on meth finally got my car togther out of paint and drove 3 hours in the pouring rain each way from chesapeake into durham north carolina to get my baby tuned with the meth injection at CAM. I was expecting around 650 rwhp but made 719 rwhp and 730 rwtq. Super stoked for the storm system to pass so i can go romp the streets a bit
You do something in the tune incase of the meth not spraying? In my experience the meth makes the tune very rich and in 2 spots its almost 12.0 A/F. That could be in the 13's without the meth enrichment. Not trying to rain on your parade, just want your combo to hold up. 
So your tune is based around the meth? Thought this wasnt a good idea unless its a full out race car? I have always heard tune it for whatever gas you plan to run & add meth as a safety net.
Great numbers though.
Great numbers though.
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^Tuning is one of those areas where you will have about a thousand different opinions, and a lot of them are pretty sound.
As far as water/methanol injection goes, you can certanly tune for it a bit without risking the setup. For example I was talking with a customer the other day with a Maggie on an 6.0 in a truck. They picked up 40HP on a 2 degree timing increase. Thats pretty amazing, usually it is not that much on just 2 degrees. But that's an example where a mild tuning change made possible and safe by the injection yeilds a big dividend. And even if they guy forgets to fill the tank, 2 degrees of timing is not likely going to torch a motor right away.
The other thing to consider is that the mixture used will greatly affect how much tuning is needed in terms of AFR. Often times a 50/50 mix of water/methanol will only richen things up by about .5 or so, sometimes less depending on how the system is setup.
With a lot of modern setups, you have knock detection, you have ECUs monitoring AFRs with a wideband, you have timing determined by an IAT. And most importantly, a failsafe with the system. With all these factors, you are pretty safe even with an aggressive tune thats not really meant for pump gas alone. In the end there are a lot of things that can kill a motor. Dying fuel pump, stuck injector, weak valve stem. A good water/meth system is about as safe from failure (and easy to handle if something does happen) as a lot of those components.
As far as water/methanol injection goes, you can certanly tune for it a bit without risking the setup. For example I was talking with a customer the other day with a Maggie on an 6.0 in a truck. They picked up 40HP on a 2 degree timing increase. Thats pretty amazing, usually it is not that much on just 2 degrees. But that's an example where a mild tuning change made possible and safe by the injection yeilds a big dividend. And even if they guy forgets to fill the tank, 2 degrees of timing is not likely going to torch a motor right away.
The other thing to consider is that the mixture used will greatly affect how much tuning is needed in terms of AFR. Often times a 50/50 mix of water/methanol will only richen things up by about .5 or so, sometimes less depending on how the system is setup.
With a lot of modern setups, you have knock detection, you have ECUs monitoring AFRs with a wideband, you have timing determined by an IAT. And most importantly, a failsafe with the system. With all these factors, you are pretty safe even with an aggressive tune thats not really meant for pump gas alone. In the end there are a lot of things that can kill a motor. Dying fuel pump, stuck injector, weak valve stem. A good water/meth system is about as safe from failure (and easy to handle if something does happen) as a lot of those components.
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Launching!
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From: Chesapeake, Virginia
Setup, 98 block and crank, crower rods, mahle boost pistons, 9:1 compression, stock cubes, stock heads ported and polished with valve job. ARP everything. Comp Cams entire valvetrain, .588 .595 lift .228 .232 duration on a 115 lsa.
mac midtube headers and 2.5 exaust with cutout.
Alky control standard meth kit. Exotic performance front mount intercooler. D1sc procharger with a 8 rib 3.4 pulley
Aeromotive A1000 pump, rails, boost referenced regulator, 60 lb injectors
All this is at 15 degrees of timing
mac midtube headers and 2.5 exaust with cutout.
Alky control standard meth kit. Exotic performance front mount intercooler. D1sc procharger with a 8 rib 3.4 pulley
Aeromotive A1000 pump, rails, boost referenced regulator, 60 lb injectors
All this is at 15 degrees of timing
Last edited by SR-71 SS; Nov 12, 2009 at 09:15 PM.
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Launching!
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I think methanol systems are largely misunderstood here.
Turbo buick guys have been tuning based on meth for YEARS... We get maybe 16psi without knock on pump gas... make that anywhere from 24-30psi on Pump gas and meth... I have yet to hear of an alky system failing, and 90% of the cars are daily driven or regular street cars... Most TR owners dont believe in trailers haha!
So NO tuning based upon meth is not wrong or bad... just make sure you refill the tank
the systems very rarely fail... if you can manage **** up using meth, you deserve a Darwin award. It really is that simple... I cant believe it's not more popular around here.
Methanol not only cools the charge, but it ALSO adds a fuel with superior detonation resistance... this IS NOT the same thing. Yes the cooling effect aids in the detonation resistance, but the methanol itself is what lets you run higher boost levels... The cooling effect also boost HP the same way an intercooler does, it allows you to pack a cooler denser mixture into the combustion chamber... You actually wind up removing fuel from the tune, so in reality you can stretch injectors farther or get away with smaller injectors than are ideal when you run a alky system.
Basically if you dont tune for meth and you have a meth system then you are wasting your money...
Bye the way sorry to hijack the thread! Those are great numbers! Keep the tank full and enjoy! Bye the way for post compressor setups like yours, run 100% methanol all the time. Pre compressor systems work better with a 50% water mixture.
Turbo buick guys have been tuning based on meth for YEARS... We get maybe 16psi without knock on pump gas... make that anywhere from 24-30psi on Pump gas and meth... I have yet to hear of an alky system failing, and 90% of the cars are daily driven or regular street cars... Most TR owners dont believe in trailers haha!
So NO tuning based upon meth is not wrong or bad... just make sure you refill the tank
the systems very rarely fail... if you can manage **** up using meth, you deserve a Darwin award. It really is that simple... I cant believe it's not more popular around here.Methanol not only cools the charge, but it ALSO adds a fuel with superior detonation resistance... this IS NOT the same thing. Yes the cooling effect aids in the detonation resistance, but the methanol itself is what lets you run higher boost levels... The cooling effect also boost HP the same way an intercooler does, it allows you to pack a cooler denser mixture into the combustion chamber... You actually wind up removing fuel from the tune, so in reality you can stretch injectors farther or get away with smaller injectors than are ideal when you run a alky system.
Basically if you dont tune for meth and you have a meth system then you are wasting your money...
Bye the way sorry to hijack the thread! Those are great numbers! Keep the tank full and enjoy! Bye the way for post compressor setups like yours, run 100% methanol all the time. Pre compressor systems work better with a 50% water mixture.
Thread Starter
Launching!
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Joined: Feb 2005
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From: Chesapeake, Virginia
I agree with Adam.I have alot of cars that run meth and a heavy dose too.They are all street cars.Been doing this for over 5 years and no failures.A 7-800hp car can fail from many other things instead of meth problems.
On The Tree
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From: Lino Lakes, MN
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Joined: Nov 2009
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I think methanol systems are largely misunderstood here.
Turbo buick guys have been tuning based on meth for YEARS... We get maybe 16psi without knock on pump gas... make that anywhere from 24-30psi on Pump gas and meth... I have yet to hear of an alky system failing, and 90% of the cars are daily driven or regular street cars... Most TR owners dont believe in trailers haha!
So NO tuning based upon meth is not wrong or bad... just make sure you refill the tank the systems very rarely fail... if you can manage **** up using meth, you deserve a Darwin award. It really is that simple... I cant believe it's not more popular around here.
Methanol not only cools the charge, but it ALSO adds a fuel with superior detonation resistance... this IS NOT the same thing. Yes the cooling effect aids in the detonation resistance, but the methanol itself is what lets you run higher boost levels... The cooling effect also boost HP the same way an intercooler does, it allows you to pack a cooler denser mixture into the combustion chamber... You actually wind up removing fuel from the tune, so in reality you can stretch injectors farther or get away with smaller injectors than are ideal when you run a alky system.
Basically if you dont tune for meth and you have a meth system then you are wasting your money...
Bye the way sorry to hijack the thread! Those are great numbers! Keep the tank full and enjoy! Bye the way for post compressor setups like yours, run 100% methanol all the time. Pre compressor systems work better with a 50% water mixture.
Turbo buick guys have been tuning based on meth for YEARS... We get maybe 16psi without knock on pump gas... make that anywhere from 24-30psi on Pump gas and meth... I have yet to hear of an alky system failing, and 90% of the cars are daily driven or regular street cars... Most TR owners dont believe in trailers haha!
So NO tuning based upon meth is not wrong or bad... just make sure you refill the tank
the systems very rarely fail... if you can manage **** up using meth, you deserve a Darwin award. It really is that simple... I cant believe it's not more popular around here.Methanol not only cools the charge, but it ALSO adds a fuel with superior detonation resistance... this IS NOT the same thing. Yes the cooling effect aids in the detonation resistance, but the methanol itself is what lets you run higher boost levels... The cooling effect also boost HP the same way an intercooler does, it allows you to pack a cooler denser mixture into the combustion chamber... You actually wind up removing fuel from the tune, so in reality you can stretch injectors farther or get away with smaller injectors than are ideal when you run a alky system.
Basically if you dont tune for meth and you have a meth system then you are wasting your money...
Bye the way sorry to hijack the thread! Those are great numbers! Keep the tank full and enjoy! Bye the way for post compressor setups like yours, run 100% methanol all the time. Pre compressor systems work better with a 50% water mixture.
Some good points there. I would not have been so frank about it though
You hit the major points pretty well. Its not just the intercooling, it's the control over combustion (ability to run a more sensible AFR, more ignition timing, etc) that really makes this such a great modification. On top of that, the fact that you can not only run a leaner AFR safely while also getting it using less gasoline is a big help to injectors.
One thing I do disagree with is the recomended mixtures. We find that having water in the mix is very beneficial because water absorbs more heat CC per CC compared to methanol (almost double). The pure meth might do a lot for the IAT, but the water content plays a big role in the combustion chmaber itself. On top of that, the water content makes things safer, as methanol has a very low flash point. With the exception of a positive displacement blower like a Maggie or a KB or Whipple, we dont recomend pre-compressor injection. But If I were to do pre-compressor, I would go with a higher meth content to allow for better evaporation and a lower density liquid hitting the leading edges of the compressor blades. Methanol is a good 20% or so less dense than water, which is good if you have a turbo spinning at 100K RPM and droplets hitting it. To put that in perspective, a compressor blade tip on a wheel with a 1.5" radius is moving at almost 900MPH at 100K RPM. Less impact is good.
Last edited by SnowTech.4; Nov 16, 2009 at 04:50 PM. Reason: Forgot to mention the last paragraph....
