Thinking about going FI... Any tips?
04-14-2010, 10:46 AM
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Thinking about going FI... Any tips? Well, I was wanting to get a stall and bigger cam in my car, but instead, am thinking about getting a supercharger or turbo set up. I was told my current cam is good for FI. Any tips on what to do? Also, how much boost can a stock LS1 motor take without risk of being destroyed? Same with the 4L60E, how much can it take before it breaks? Are 10-bolts too weak for FI? Can automatics make decent numbers with FI?
Sorry for all the questions, I'm just now starting to get interested in FI, and I'm sure I could find these answers if I used the search, but I'm at work, and the search function doesn't work on my computer for some reason.
Sorry for all the questions, I'm just now starting to get interested in FI, and I'm sure I could find these answers if I used the search, but I'm at work, and the search function doesn't work on my computer for some reason.
04-14-2010, 11:12 AM
#2
Most if not all of these can be answered with a search.
To quickly hit a couple:
1. A stock LS1 can take 5-6 psi without much risk. It can take more than that, but it gets exponentially more dangerous as you go. That's really a generic statement though, as the type of boost matters; methanol injection? turbo? centrifugal blower? whipple? maggie? Each type has it's own limits, do some research.
2. 4L60e. Stock? Not a f'n prayer. You can build one to take a lot of abuse though. Get out your checkbook.
You'll need it out for the F/I build anyway.
3. 10 bolt. Some use them, a roots or whipple will kill it more quickly than a turbo. Either way it's on borrowed time.
4. Automatics are generally better with a turbo vs. a stick (drivability/performance wise, power to the ground will still be lower). With blowers it's less important, though you'll find a blower pretty hard on a stick, generally. Power loss percentages with F/I are the same as without. You can make all the power you want with F/I, all depends on how thick your wallet is, just like anything else.
No offense, but by the sound of your questions, I'd recommend contacting a shop about this. Also, read the "true cost of forced induction" bit in the stickies. Going from a nearly stock car to a 600 HP F/I car costs cubic dollars, if you can't handle all your own work.
To quickly hit a couple:
1. A stock LS1 can take 5-6 psi without much risk. It can take more than that, but it gets exponentially more dangerous as you go. That's really a generic statement though, as the type of boost matters; methanol injection? turbo? centrifugal blower? whipple? maggie? Each type has it's own limits, do some research.
2. 4L60e. Stock? Not a f'n prayer. You can build one to take a lot of abuse though. Get out your checkbook.
You'll need it out for the F/I build anyway.3. 10 bolt. Some use them, a roots or whipple will kill it more quickly than a turbo. Either way it's on borrowed time.
4. Automatics are generally better with a turbo vs. a stick (drivability/performance wise, power to the ground will still be lower). With blowers it's less important, though you'll find a blower pretty hard on a stick, generally. Power loss percentages with F/I are the same as without. You can make all the power you want with F/I, all depends on how thick your wallet is, just like anything else.
No offense, but by the sound of your questions, I'd recommend contacting a shop about this. Also, read the "true cost of forced induction" bit in the stickies. Going from a nearly stock car to a 600 HP F/I car costs cubic dollars, if you can't handle all your own work.
04-14-2010, 11:24 AM
#3
Well 8psi on a stock motor is safe.
Your auto will likely not last long but the 10 bolt will if you aren't trying to go to the track on sticky tires.
Procharger gets my vote due to easy of install and they make great power.
Also yes be prepared to spend some money. And more than you think.
Your auto will likely not last long but the 10 bolt will if you aren't trying to go to the track on sticky tires.
Procharger gets my vote due to easy of install and they make great power.
Also yes be prepared to spend some money. And more than you think.
04-14-2010, 12:56 PM
#6
Win the lottery.... lol I have had a procharger in the past and now converting to a LS2 in my 96 SS with a 4l80. Granted what I am doing it much more expensive than what you are proposing,but like others have said, even 8 psi procharger kits aren't cheap. It's all the small stuff that you don't anticipate. It can be done, you just have to sit down and plan it all out. Doing your own work will save you big $$$. I'm having ERL build my short block and Rossler is handling the transmission. Other than those two items everything else will be done by me.
Last edited by 355TurboLT1; 04-14-2010 at 01:12 PM.
04-14-2010, 01:00 PM
#7
Agree with most of this. Procharger good option, STS newer design pretty good option.
Few companies coming out with new kits single and dual see Modular turbo thread.
Some used kits would be ok as well like APS used kit for maybe 4000 to 5000 grand tops. Might need to replace turbos in the aps kit thats why good to buy it a bit cheaper.
10 bolts will stand up find if you dont' try to run really stick tires, street tires you won't have any traction anyway ,nittos are bit stickier but should still save the 10 bolt. Obviously auto cars are easier on rear ends.
Your cam you didn't list full specs. Most any cam can work ok for FI but of course you can optimize. But opinions really vary on what is best.no split,reverse split, normal split..and then what lsa...lift generally stay under 600 for FI and make sure you have good valve springs upgrade stock ones for sure.
You need upgradeds to fuel system , at least like a racetronix single pump and 42 to 60 injectors. You can run stock rails and stock reg for awhile.
As said need to spend money on the 4l60 or swap in a stock 4l80 which is plenty strong.
And pretty easy swap really.
Also you will need few other things ,guages ,scantools, wideband is handy. tuning. Alc injection is a good thing..
But it can be done on stock or nearly stock car. Local guy has run his sts turbo for couple years nearly bone stock,fuel pump ,injectors thats about it.
As said stick to lower boost levels under 8 for sure if it was me. You can swap on 317 heads for pretty cheap, lower compression and then would maybe go to 10psi or so. Its hard to say exactly as turbo size and blower size will make different power at same psi.
Stock pistons are the biggest weak link, fragile ringlands and will shatter pretty easily if you get detonation. Rod bolts think are next weak link. Cranks are strong and rods not bad.
Few companies coming out with new kits single and dual see Modular turbo thread.
Some used kits would be ok as well like APS used kit for maybe 4000 to 5000 grand tops. Might need to replace turbos in the aps kit thats why good to buy it a bit cheaper.
10 bolts will stand up find if you dont' try to run really stick tires, street tires you won't have any traction anyway ,nittos are bit stickier but should still save the 10 bolt. Obviously auto cars are easier on rear ends.
Your cam you didn't list full specs. Most any cam can work ok for FI but of course you can optimize. But opinions really vary on what is best.no split,reverse split, normal split..and then what lsa...lift generally stay under 600 for FI and make sure you have good valve springs upgrade stock ones for sure.
You need upgradeds to fuel system , at least like a racetronix single pump and 42 to 60 injectors. You can run stock rails and stock reg for awhile.
As said need to spend money on the 4l60 or swap in a stock 4l80 which is plenty strong.
And pretty easy swap really.
Also you will need few other things ,guages ,scantools, wideband is handy. tuning. Alc injection is a good thing..
But it can be done on stock or nearly stock car. Local guy has run his sts turbo for couple years nearly bone stock,fuel pump ,injectors thats about it.
As said stick to lower boost levels under 8 for sure if it was me. You can swap on 317 heads for pretty cheap, lower compression and then would maybe go to 10psi or so. Its hard to say exactly as turbo size and blower size will make different power at same psi.
Stock pistons are the biggest weak link, fragile ringlands and will shatter pretty easily if you get detonation. Rod bolts think are next weak link. Cranks are strong and rods not bad.
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04-14-2010, 03:18 PM
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I already researched FI a LITTLE bit and saw all of the little things. I was planning on setting about $9k aside for a FI set-up. I've been told it's more like $10-$11k though, so idk.
04-14-2010, 03:23 PM
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Im about 7k in on a stock motor with add ons listed in my sig, counting all the stupid tools I bought along the way. I havent touched the tranny or rear end at all. A rear end and DS will run from 2-3k alone.
Actually more than 7k because I paid 800 for a clutch lol.
Actually more than 7k because I paid 800 for a clutch lol.
04-14-2010, 04:59 PM
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I'm around 19k in parts for my set up thats also about a grand for getting the engine ready for the pistons and all of that. But I got a vette so I got the vette tax on a lot of it. I'm just waiting on two stupid lil parts cuz of the 98-99 head switch and then its off to get tuned. Its going to be be a lot more than what you are planning unless you absolutely know EVERYTHING you gotta change.
04-14-2010, 05:07 PM
#11
Its doable for 10k but easier if you got some stuff used.
You need racetronix pump and 60 pound injectors ideally these are pretty cheap. You can get tuning done for likely around 300 bucks.
You don't need to change stock rear end right away especially on an auto,just don't run super sticky tires stick to street tires or maybe nittos.
You can run totally stock engine but say some better valve springs like 918 comps or similar are good idea.
You don't need alc injection right away you can get by on pump premium and just keep boost 5 to 7 or so.
You can get cheap boost guage from like autometer that works fine. You don't need boost controller or you can get manual one for 100 bucks or less. You can get wideband for a couple hundred these days or let tuner use his maybe.
You could get think one of several used aps kits on board lately??? for 4000 to maybe 5000 be pretty good deal. You do need bmr kmember for aps kit they made me and few other guys a custom bmr/aps kmember for even better clearances.
You would need to buy like a ypipe if you want to stay with stock catback setup instead of true duals.I got hooker ceramic coated one and it fit great.
You can sometimes get a used procharger as well or used sts kit. If you get a used sts kit try to get a newer redesign they are much better in several key areas over the old kit.I would stay away from ebay kits, knock off gates and turbos and blow offs and if you try to do your own kit without fab skills you likely will get very frustrated.
Sts, procharger,aps for cheaper..all good kits. Or you can get modulars new single kit for now or maybe kit from KYTP both have been around for awhile. TTI also has been around but not sure their prices or much about them.Mighty mouse think runs tti single kit.
For trans upgrade could cost 2000 to 3000 or so. As said though you could run stock 4l80 or if you can live without overdrive for now you can run stock or near stock turbo 350 or turbo 400 trans as well.
317 heads are pretty cheap can help drop your compression to run a bit more boost on stock motor. Stock cams will work ok for now.
I wouldn't get totally scared off if had 10k or so to spend. But if you want like some guys a big power build like 800 or 1000rwhp or more then it all starts to cost big money.
To run much over 600rwhp you need serious fuel system, dual pumps,bigger lines, rails,adustable reg. To run m6 car with big power need serious clutch, trans upgrades.If auto you need turbo 350,400,4l80 or upgraded 4l60.
To run track with big power and race tires like et street radials you need a new stronger rearend and stronger driveshaft.
Stock ls1 engine can take a lot of power if you put in better rod bolts and or rods and better forged pistons. Crank as said is strong.
You need racetronix pump and 60 pound injectors ideally these are pretty cheap. You can get tuning done for likely around 300 bucks.
You don't need to change stock rear end right away especially on an auto,just don't run super sticky tires stick to street tires or maybe nittos.
You can run totally stock engine but say some better valve springs like 918 comps or similar are good idea.
You don't need alc injection right away you can get by on pump premium and just keep boost 5 to 7 or so.
You can get cheap boost guage from like autometer that works fine. You don't need boost controller or you can get manual one for 100 bucks or less. You can get wideband for a couple hundred these days or let tuner use his maybe.
You could get think one of several used aps kits on board lately??? for 4000 to maybe 5000 be pretty good deal. You do need bmr kmember for aps kit they made me and few other guys a custom bmr/aps kmember for even better clearances.
You would need to buy like a ypipe if you want to stay with stock catback setup instead of true duals.I got hooker ceramic coated one and it fit great.
You can sometimes get a used procharger as well or used sts kit. If you get a used sts kit try to get a newer redesign they are much better in several key areas over the old kit.I would stay away from ebay kits, knock off gates and turbos and blow offs and if you try to do your own kit without fab skills you likely will get very frustrated.
Sts, procharger,aps for cheaper..all good kits. Or you can get modulars new single kit for now or maybe kit from KYTP both have been around for awhile. TTI also has been around but not sure their prices or much about them.Mighty mouse think runs tti single kit.
For trans upgrade could cost 2000 to 3000 or so. As said though you could run stock 4l80 or if you can live without overdrive for now you can run stock or near stock turbo 350 or turbo 400 trans as well.
317 heads are pretty cheap can help drop your compression to run a bit more boost on stock motor. Stock cams will work ok for now.
I wouldn't get totally scared off if had 10k or so to spend. But if you want like some guys a big power build like 800 or 1000rwhp or more then it all starts to cost big money.
To run much over 600rwhp you need serious fuel system, dual pumps,bigger lines, rails,adustable reg. To run m6 car with big power need serious clutch, trans upgrades.If auto you need turbo 350,400,4l80 or upgraded 4l60.
To run track with big power and race tires like et street radials you need a new stronger rearend and stronger driveshaft.
Stock ls1 engine can take a lot of power if you put in better rod bolts and or rods and better forged pistons. Crank as said is strong.
04-14-2010, 05:22 PM
#12
In the end it all depends on what you do. I myself will have very minimal costs in my build. My most expensive part will be a used D1SC head unit. If you can find parts & know what your lookin for there are guys every season parting out combos & sometimes you can really save some cash.
For instance here are a few deals I have scored:
ATI balancer for A/C equipped cars $225 shipped (new $400+)
Standard Procharger J-bracket (minus hardware & tensioner) $60 shipped (hardware kit is $60 & 8-rib tensioner is $90, still cheaper than buying a new complete j-bracket assembly though)
7.65" crank 8-rib pulley for the balancer $60 shipped
3.4" headunit pulley 8-rib $50 shipped
I'd suggest if your gonna go the FI route you spend some serious time in this section reading every thread relevant to what you wanna do. Thats what I have been doin for almost a year now & its paying off big time. I know a TON more now than I did & know exactly what direction I need to go & which parts I'm lookin for to build it on the tightest budget I can but still be built right. It can be done if you have patience & know what you need. You will save a ton if you have people who can help out fabrication wise as well or if you can do things yourself.
For instance here are a few deals I have scored:
ATI balancer for A/C equipped cars $225 shipped (new $400+)
Standard Procharger J-bracket (minus hardware & tensioner) $60 shipped (hardware kit is $60 & 8-rib tensioner is $90, still cheaper than buying a new complete j-bracket assembly though)
7.65" crank 8-rib pulley for the balancer $60 shipped
3.4" headunit pulley 8-rib $50 shipped
I'd suggest if your gonna go the FI route you spend some serious time in this section reading every thread relevant to what you wanna do. Thats what I have been doin for almost a year now & its paying off big time. I know a TON more now than I did & know exactly what direction I need to go & which parts I'm lookin for to build it on the tightest budget I can but still be built right. It can be done if you have patience & know what you need. You will save a ton if you have people who can help out fabrication wise as well or if you can do things yourself.
04-18-2010, 10:37 PM
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Once everything is completed on my build, I'll be right at $28k. If I had it to do over again, I'd have gone s/c. The readily-available exhaust and other components are a BIG plus when going s/c, IMHO. Just something to consider.
04-18-2010, 10:46 PM
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my 4l60e lasted a whole season with numerous 12.1 second 1/4 mile passes. on 13psi of boost (built motor)
there are ways to make the 4l60e last
do not fit slicks or very big tires ( i ran my stock 245's) the car did not hook for ****, but was fun to drive
also i fitted a huge tranny cooler and a transmission temperature gauge and changed my transmission oil with synthetic, never saw temperatures above 150, even at the track
increase the tranny line pressure so the clutches do not burn up, but it will shift very hard
this season i will be upping the power even more, and i will see when the 4l60e blows up.
there are ways to make the 4l60e last
do not fit slicks or very big tires ( i ran my stock 245's) the car did not hook for ****, but was fun to drive
also i fitted a huge tranny cooler and a transmission temperature gauge and changed my transmission oil with synthetic, never saw temperatures above 150, even at the track
increase the tranny line pressure so the clutches do not burn up, but it will shift very hard
this season i will be upping the power even more, and i will see when the 4l60e blows up.
04-18-2010, 11:51 PM
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04-18-2010, 11:52 PM
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Previous posters are telling you the truth..The little things and the things you want will kill a budget..So far in my build i have 7k in the long block and another 7k in the disc kit and extras(guages,wideband,rails..) its not cheap but you must pay to play!!!
I dont know much about autos but the 10 bolt should hold up if you stay on street tires. Its been my finding that as long as you are spinning they will last..If you hook break out your check book!!!!lol There is a guy out here in the bay area that pushing 10-12lbs on a stock block,m6 10 bollt..going on six months and he drives it hard!!!It can be done but more have failed than succeeded...Good luck and do a lot of research..
I dont know much about autos but the 10 bolt should hold up if you stay on street tires. Its been my finding that as long as you are spinning they will last..If you hook break out your check book!!!!lol There is a guy out here in the bay area that pushing 10-12lbs on a stock block,m6 10 bollt..going on six months and he drives it hard!!!It can be done but more have failed than succeeded...Good luck and do a lot of research..
04-19-2010, 08:55 AM
#19
Your stock 4L60 and 10 bolt will not hold up too any SC or turbo set up for very long. Most kits out there now a days are going to put down at close to 500 rwhp and close to the same torque. Im not saying a few guys out there are not getting away with it but IMOP its only a matter of time.
The stock LS1 can hold a good bit of power if its tuned right. Most guys agree that some where around 500-550 is about the limit for the stock bottom end. Boost will very but i would say 8-10 is the limit with a spot on tune and maybe meth as a safty net.
I would start with a good all around set up that will allow you grow over time. When i first started i said i would never out grow my 60 kit but just one year latter i am upgrading to a T76. If you go turbo i would say a single 70mm is about as small as you want to go even on a stock LS1.
FI is expensive on our cars there are no two ways about it. If you are trying to go cheap your work on a budget i would suggest going with N2O since it offers a lot more bang for the buck IMOP.
The stock LS1 can hold a good bit of power if its tuned right. Most guys agree that some where around 500-550 is about the limit for the stock bottom end. Boost will very but i would say 8-10 is the limit with a spot on tune and maybe meth as a safty net.
I would start with a good all around set up that will allow you grow over time. When i first started i said i would never out grow my 60 kit but just one year latter i am upgrading to a T76. If you go turbo i would say a single 70mm is about as small as you want to go even on a stock LS1.
FI is expensive on our cars there are no two ways about it. If you are trying to go cheap your work on a budget i would suggest going with N2O since it offers a lot more bang for the buck IMOP.
