Rob Raymer

Then obviously you don't know the whole story, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I assume you mean "confrontational" as in the post you just made?

I'll leave it at that.

Rob Raymer

I've been thinking about this "confrontational" thing. I really don't think I'm confrontational...I think the word is "defensive". Confrontational would mean that I make posts with the intention of starting an argument or debate. If you can, please show me where I have EVER started something that can even remotely be called "confrontational" under the true meaning of the word? Because I don't think you can.

I share my work, experiments, findings, and results here for free. I try things at my own expense and my own risk for the betterment of everyone on this board (believe it or not). You didn't see me trying to sell a kit in this post, or in ANY of my posts. In fact, I'm now being critcized for not selling a "kit". (We only sell it now as an Installed, Fully Tuned System) So how can I possibly win???

In all honesty, I have SINCERELY debated not selling turbo kits anymore at all! After all, why should I? There's no profit in it, and most of all, very little appreciation for my findings. You know, it's a lot easier (not to mention more profitable) to sell a Pro Charger (which we do sell). I sell it, ship it, forget about it.

It just seems to me that the general consensus is, if there's no arguing going on on the Board, it's boring. I guess I make an easy target.

2001WS6Vert

Its just that you seem to get into it with a lot of people on this board. Many of them are your customers and it seems strange to me that you wouldn't want to handle it more carefully. Like I said I'm just an outsider reading the post and as an outsider I'm never sure who is right. Because I frequent this board and have read many of the heated discussions it has made me leary of dealing with you. Maybe its just that I've gotten used to businesses using the motto "the customer is always right" even when the business has done no wrong. You don't seem to hesitate to defend your position but it looks like a very brash manner. Its your business and you run the show but I just want to get the point across that you might be scaring off business. You are right about it being entertaining. This has been the best thread lately.

Rob Raymer

Okay, I see your point. But as far as I know, there have ONLY BEEN TWO CUSTOMER's I have argued with here. And one of them wasn't even technically MY customer.
I'm not sure you can consider me and Harlan "getting into it", as I still consider him a friend. Maybe he was just having a bad day, I don't know, but I'll give him the benefit of a doubt here.

The part that I now want to get defensive about, is saying something like "you seem to get into it with a lot of people on this board".

Emotional arguments are NEVER good. All arguments should be based on facts. And I don't think the statement you just made is factual. I draw this conclusion based on the fact that we likely have hundredes, even thousands of customers on this Board. And arguing with ONE customer (as I said, the other two aren't even technically customers of mine) is not that bad of a percentage in my book. I'm sorry, but times have changed...the customer isn't always right. It's a shame, but a fact none-the-less.

However, statements such as the one you made being read by "outsiders" like yourself, may be taken as fact, and THERFORE "scare off my business". So how could I not get defensive about that?

2001WS6Vert

I just wanted to get that off my chest. Thanks for repsonding, Tom.

kp

iTrader: (34)

Some people do appreciate you posting this stuff Rob, I'm sure you dont need a pat on the back but I'm even more sure you dont need any arguments.

I dont really follow the politics of it all and to be honest I dont have any interest in a turbo kit but its good (and free) info. Not all people want to build a 8-9 second FI car, at least with an LS1 anyhow, and I think the stock engine thing is pretty cool. I really think you need to slap a TH400 and a 12 bolt in there and get it down a dragstrip

kev93z

just another casual reader here thats read every thread concerning this kit since the very begining. i was never intersted in turbos till i started reading all the great info and testing rob provides here. i would like the oppurtunity to own one of these kits within the next year, if a FEW ****** dont push rob out of the ls1 turbo buisness before then. i will be investing $7500 into my car at the end of the month and will buy all my parts from sponsors here. so i do support this board. seems to me a lot of jealousy goin on here thats affecting opinions and abilities to effectively moderate this section. a lil is needed here by the admins IMO. rob hang in there your supporters by FAR outweigh your critics.

Pro Stock John

iTrader: (34)

Based on the last comment, let's just keep the discussion focused on forced induction and not other things.

y2khawk

iTrader: (5)

Guys

I was not out to attack Rob.

Things got a bit heated, and a few electronic dog turds were tossed (to quote the latest Hot Rod )

I for one am glad to see Rob pushing his kit, there aren't too many viable turbo kits out there for the non-fabricators among us.

My greatest fear is simply that people will dive into the FI world without having a full grasp of what's involved. Nothing more, nothing less. Turbos kick ***, and everyone should have the opportunity to drive/ride in a turbo V8. You'll spend 2 weeks whipping the **** eatin' grin off your face But all too often people miss things, and that can lead to disaster.

No jealousy here, i got my turbo car.

We all have our moments, me and Rob both. Can't we all just get along??

Pro Stock John

iTrader: (34)

For sure I am very glad to see Rob take a stock longblock and push it like he has in the last two dyno sessions... I have never used meth/alky so the on/off pulls give me an understanding of how it helps. I know us North-of-I80 folks have cabin fever so that's not helping some of these threads... Play BALL and Rob keep us posted!!!!!!

Rob Raymer

Clean slate. All is forgiven.

Peace.

M_T_0

ok first I know very little about the pcm of the lsx but comming from a engineering background the way that i would fix a problem with a sensor maxing out is to use a larger sensor or using parallel sensors and scaling the output I.E. use dual ducts install 2 matched sensors and only use 1 of the outputs then the output could be used and would read to 2X the flow. for that matter the second air path could be a dummy that only had the same air flow. thinking even further since it would be calabrated in the tuning it would not matter what the % of the air flow passed thru the MAF but just that it was consistant. just an idea but feel free to tell me what i missed

cablebandit

iTrader: (37)

Y2khawk did pretty much what you are talking about I believe. Harlan step in and verify please

onfire

iTrader: (17)

I wonder if low speed air velocity would cause a sampling problem with a /2 ratio? The best way is the LPE way.....one stock maf and proper calibration(plue ecm witchery) for +150mph runs in the quarter.

M_T_0

Thats great but a lot of $$$, and I was thinking on how to do it other than sending it to them for some vodoo. as far as the low speed opperation goes, if the MAF is maxing out at ~ 5k rpm at WOT then about a 30% bypass of the MAF should do it and still be operating within its usable range at low speed as well as at the high speed WOT condition. from there it should be a matter of tuning it. Also if I'm going to have a portion of my tune operating blind (fuel delivery based on rpm only) I would rather take my chances at low rpm non WOT. but then as I stated above I am far from being an expert with the PCM.

M_T_0

Also IF the sensor (MAF) is truely operating out of range then by deffinition it CANNOT be calabrated and some workaround has to be employed. I'm looking for a solution that alows the PCM to opperate in "closed loop" not in bandaid mode. no slam intended to anyone, including LPE.

onfire

iTrader: (17)

Somehow LPE is getting a true sampling rate with the stock maf/bap. Their boost controllers allow push button rises in boost from 6 psi to 14ish psi WITHOUT having to download an edit file for the increase in boost......most impressive. Obviously a difference in Hex programming and ls1edit.

red ws6 99

Who says LPE is not using somehting like a microfueler (Like Incon had with the stage II). The micofueler was a boost controller, it could adjust timing based on boost and fuel based on boost (with additional injectors). You have a base tune with the pcm and then the boost controller controls the rest.

Gary

onfire

iTrader: (17)

No additional injectors for LPE.....they have used some alky on the high boost apps, but have figured out how to get real sampling out of the stock ecm/maf. That's the next frontier for the rest of the tuners in ls1 land....hahaha....

M_T_0

Ok the MAF is either maxed out or it is not, if it is maxed out then you cannot make it read correctly by programing the PCM, the only thing that it will tell you at that point is that the air flow is exceeding the range of the sensor. the only thing that you can do is start adding fuel in an open loop control scheme such as based on rpm.