Does meth go bad?
08-20-2011, 07:11 AM
#21
TECH Apprentice
Okay, I'll toss my 20 years of chemistry experience out the window because you have a drum of cloudy methanol.
I'm not saying it didn't absorb moisture, because it most definitely will do that, but I'm just saying that being cloudy is a sign of other issues than just absorbing moisture. Most likely, air caused the inside of the drum to oxidize, and the methanol is cloudy because it's aerated. Purge it with nitrogen or helium, or a pull a slight vacum on it, and I'd bet it would clear up.
I'm not saying it didn't absorb moisture, because it most definitely will do that, but I'm just saying that being cloudy is a sign of other issues than just absorbing moisture. Most likely, air caused the inside of the drum to oxidize, and the methanol is cloudy because it's aerated. Purge it with nitrogen or helium, or a pull a slight vacum on it, and I'd bet it would clear up.
how is the 'water test" conducted with pure methanol at NHRA , ANDRA etc fuel tests?
i would rethink ur comments.
08-20-2011, 07:21 AM
#22
TECH Apprentice
store the meth in a sealed metal container , no plastic
warm up the motor on old methanol..., and them change plugs if you want to use it...
08-20-2011, 08:37 AM
#25
TECH Apprentice
08-20-2011, 09:39 AM
#26
Again, I think we're talking about vastly different worlds here with garage chemistry and what I do. I'm not using garage methanol or tap water. Hell the equipment alone for testing and generating our water is over $150,000.00.
My point was, cloudy methanol doesn't mean it has water in it, just as much as clear methanol doesn't mean it's water free.
I'm done with arguing or trying to educate a little.
08-20-2011, 06:59 PM
#27
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The Alchemist, thanks dude, I appreciate people that take the time to actually hekp inform the OP instead of trying to bitch over the internet. I refer this site to many people and the main thing they complain about is the high school girl mentalities we used to tease mustang drivers for...
08-20-2011, 08:55 PM
#28
The Alchemist, thanks dude, I appreciate people that take the time to actually hekp inform the OP instead of trying to bitch over the internet. I refer this site to many people and the main thing they complain about is the high school girl mentalities we used to tease mustang drivers for...
08-20-2011, 10:49 PM
#30
Use m1 but don't use the colored stuff make sure it is clear with no lubricants. I order mine from a place that is world wide racing across the globe.
If you can't get the name of the place from the above last sentence sorry as I can't post a non-sponsor. That's where I get mine from. It's 30 ish for a 5 gallon metal can.
If you can't get the name of the place from the above last sentence sorry as I can't post a non-sponsor. That's where I get mine from. It's 30 ish for a 5 gallon metal can.
08-20-2011, 11:36 PM
#31
TECH Apprentice
the OP was asking a question , if he could use old methanol.
u said he would be ok to use it..
that alone is the dumbest comment ive seen from such a highly educated person such as yourself.
being a chemist is one thing, granted ...
but knowing what the old methanol does in a blown/ forced induction engine is another...
since your the expurt, what sp gravity changes is there from pure methanol, over methanol that has been opened to the atmosphere?
as the SG changes, you well know the flow rate changes through a known orifice size.
that alone changes the flow rate of methanol into the engine.....
flow rate or BSFC for the engine is important for tune up.
soooo, why would you say is ok to use old methanol ???
being a chemist.. have you access to a flow bench for building / modifing fuel systems ???
therefore more or less water in the methanol changes the tuneup..
so to answer the OP's question.... NO old methanol isnot gok to use in the forced induction engine.
for all the other readers...go do this test
get 50ml of known pure methanol.... yep it looks clear
get 50mm of distilled water..yeep it looks clear
now pour them together...
yep is looks clear , btu it also has different look about it to either liquids that are not mixed..
cloudy, airated, 'oily' , what ever you want to call it, it doesn't look the same, OR act the same when injected into a internal combustion engine, with forced induction...
apart from the fact, the water in the methanol, gives a different spark plug reading, if the tune is keep the same, as pure new methanol on the same engine...
again, i would not use old methanol in the motor..
but im just a dumb ***...
u said he would be ok to use it..
that alone is the dumbest comment ive seen from such a highly educated person such as yourself.
being a chemist is one thing, granted ...
but knowing what the old methanol does in a blown/ forced induction engine is another...
since your the expurt, what sp gravity changes is there from pure methanol, over methanol that has been opened to the atmosphere?
as the SG changes, you well know the flow rate changes through a known orifice size.
that alone changes the flow rate of methanol into the engine.....
flow rate or BSFC for the engine is important for tune up.
soooo, why would you say is ok to use old methanol ???
being a chemist.. have you access to a flow bench for building / modifing fuel systems ???
therefore more or less water in the methanol changes the tuneup..
so to answer the OP's question.... NO old methanol isnot gok to use in the forced induction engine.
for all the other readers...go do this test
get 50ml of known pure methanol.... yep it looks clear
get 50mm of distilled water..yeep it looks clear
now pour them together...
yep is looks clear , btu it also has different look about it to either liquids that are not mixed..
cloudy, airated, 'oily' , what ever you want to call it, it doesn't look the same, OR act the same when injected into a internal combustion engine, with forced induction...
apart from the fact, the water in the methanol, gives a different spark plug reading, if the tune is keep the same, as pure new methanol on the same engine...
again, i would not use old methanol in the motor..
but im just a dumb ***...
Last edited by crashly; 08-20-2011 at 11:40 PM. Reason: edit: just letting ppl knowm im a dumb ass
08-20-2011, 11:43 PM
#32
I never once said use it.
I don't think he did either.
I was just saying he has a lot more knowledge in chemistry than most people on this site.
Of course water in it will change the tune-up and make it leaner. Pure meth without the tune being changed will make it run pig rich of course.
I don't think he did either.
I was just saying he has a lot more knowledge in chemistry than most people on this site.
Of course water in it will change the tune-up and make it leaner. Pure meth without the tune being changed will make it run pig rich of course.
08-20-2011, 11:47 PM
#33
TECH Apprentice
^^^
old mate says its fine to use it....
08-20-2011, 11:49 PM
#34
TECH Apprentice
08-20-2011, 11:53 PM
#35
TECH Apprentice
I never once said use it.
I don't think he did either.
I was just saying he has a lot more knowledge in chemistry than most people on this site.
Of course water in it will change the tune-up and make it leaner. Pure meth without the tune being changed will make it run pig rich of course.
I don't think he did either.
I was just saying he has a lot more knowledge in chemistry than most people on this site.
Of course water in it will change the tune-up and make it leaner. Pure meth without the tune being changed will make it run pig rich of course.
yep, agree if he is a chemist, he a smart dude.. granted...
but im just a dumb ***, that knows what a SG hydro says...... knows what water in the methanol does to spark plug readings....and know how the SG changes the bsfc thrugh flow rate on the farking fuel flow bench...
at the end of the day, why risk your investment on $50 worth of old methanol ?
i know i wouldn't.
cheers
Last edited by crashly; 08-21-2011 at 12:16 AM.
08-21-2011, 05:17 AM
#37
Crashly, again, I didn't go into details of how he should tune his car.
If you want to get into specific gravity using a $50 test bob, fine, but you better have a good knowlege of how innaccurate it really is. It has an inherrant error of +/- 2%, and that's assuming you are in a temperature controlled environment and the mixture is fully equilibrated.
You know how I test the water content of methanol? I use a $130,000 GC (gas chromatography) system that is daily calibrated, independant of ambient temperature, and accuracte down to +/-0.02% and the test takes upwards of an hour. Quite different than just measuring the specific gravity with a handheld meter that is 1. cheap, 2. innaccurate, it doesn't tell you concentrations of what's actually in there, you have to guess, 3. easily changed by ambient temperature and air density.
The original poster asked if methanol went bad, and my answer was, no, it doesn't go bad, but it does absorb moisture and he should be fine. I never got into any other discussions with him with regards to tuning or anything else.
Fact is, if you don't open the container, it won't absorb as much moisture as you think. Break fluid absorbs moisture too, but if it's sat in your car over the past 6 months is it now bad?
Specific gravity is only useful if you have only 2 components in a mixture, that are pure, and then it tells you the ratio, that's all. Be careful being too reliant on specific gravity though because I can easily make up 10 different solutions that are all clear, colorless, smell like methanol, but are a mixture of water, methanol, and various other solvents and come up with the same exact specific gravity. It's simple math. For as much heavier solvent, you need to add lighter solvent into the mix.
I do know about the flow characteristics of various different ratios of methanol and water. I use UPLC (ultra high pressure liquid chromatography) to do various purity tests and we use various different mixtures of polar and non polar solvents as a mobile phase. We see line pressures upwards of 15,000-18,000 psi and if you mix the ratio wrong, and don't adjust your flow rate appropriately, it's the difference of the test working properly or blowing out the seals on a $100,000 peice of equipment.
Again, if he had just methanol in his tank, and it was capped all winter into summer, I stand by my statement that it should be fine. He doesn't have a top fuel funny car here, he's got a 500-700 hp motor using methanol injection.
If you want to get into specific gravity using a $50 test bob, fine, but you better have a good knowlege of how innaccurate it really is. It has an inherrant error of +/- 2%, and that's assuming you are in a temperature controlled environment and the mixture is fully equilibrated.
You know how I test the water content of methanol? I use a $130,000 GC (gas chromatography) system that is daily calibrated, independant of ambient temperature, and accuracte down to +/-0.02% and the test takes upwards of an hour. Quite different than just measuring the specific gravity with a handheld meter that is 1. cheap, 2. innaccurate, it doesn't tell you concentrations of what's actually in there, you have to guess, 3. easily changed by ambient temperature and air density.
The original poster asked if methanol went bad, and my answer was, no, it doesn't go bad, but it does absorb moisture and he should be fine. I never got into any other discussions with him with regards to tuning or anything else.
Fact is, if you don't open the container, it won't absorb as much moisture as you think. Break fluid absorbs moisture too, but if it's sat in your car over the past 6 months is it now bad?
Specific gravity is only useful if you have only 2 components in a mixture, that are pure, and then it tells you the ratio, that's all. Be careful being too reliant on specific gravity though because I can easily make up 10 different solutions that are all clear, colorless, smell like methanol, but are a mixture of water, methanol, and various other solvents and come up with the same exact specific gravity. It's simple math. For as much heavier solvent, you need to add lighter solvent into the mix.
I do know about the flow characteristics of various different ratios of methanol and water. I use UPLC (ultra high pressure liquid chromatography) to do various purity tests and we use various different mixtures of polar and non polar solvents as a mobile phase. We see line pressures upwards of 15,000-18,000 psi and if you mix the ratio wrong, and don't adjust your flow rate appropriately, it's the difference of the test working properly or blowing out the seals on a $100,000 peice of equipment.
Again, if he had just methanol in his tank, and it was capped all winter into summer, I stand by my statement that it should be fine. He doesn't have a top fuel funny car here, he's got a 500-700 hp motor using methanol injection.
Last edited by The Alchemist; 08-21-2011 at 05:27 AM.
08-21-2011, 06:32 AM
#38
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Thanks to this thread. Now I know my fresh tank of 70 meth/30 water mix that I put in my car will be good when I get back from a short 3 month work trip. I was supposed to go to the track but it got rained out.
Last edited by Packy; 08-21-2011 at 06:49 AM.
08-21-2011, 07:15 AM
#39
If you're racing in a series where every 0.001 second counts, then it could make a difference, but for a street car, you're fine.
08-21-2011, 08:15 AM
#40
TECH Apprentice
Crashly, again, I didn't go into details of how he should tune his car.
If you want to get into specific gravity using a $50 test bob, fine, but you better have a good knowlege of how innaccurate it really is. It has an inherrant error of +/- 2%, and that's assuming you are in a temperature controlled environment and the mixture is fully equilibrated.
You know how I test the water content of methanol? I use a $130,000 GC (gas chromatography) system that is daily calibrated, independant of ambient temperature, and accuracte down to +/-0.02% and the test takes upwards of an hour. Quite different than just measuring the specific gravity with a handheld meter that is 1. cheap, 2. innaccurate, it doesn't tell you concentrations of what's actually in there, you have to guess, 3. easily changed by ambient temperature and air density.
The original poster asked if methanol went bad, and my answer was, no, it doesn't go bad, but it does absorb moisture and he should be fine. I never got into any other discussions with him with regards to tuning or anything else.
Fact is, if you don't open the container, it won't absorb as much moisture as you think. Break fluid absorbs moisture too, but if it's sat in your car over the past 6 months is it now bad?
Specific gravity is only useful if you have only 2 components in a mixture, that are pure, and then it tells you the ratio, that's all. Be careful being too reliant on specific gravity though because I can easily make up 10 different solutions that are all clear, colorless, smell like methanol, but are a mixture of water, methanol, and various other solvents and come up with the same exact specific gravity. It's simple math. For as much heavier solvent, you need to add lighter solvent into the mix.
I do know about the flow characteristics of various different ratios of methanol and water. I use UPLC (ultra high pressure liquid chromatography) to do various purity tests and we use various different mixtures of polar and non polar solvents as a mobile phase. We see line pressures upwards of 15,000-18,000 psi and if you mix the ratio wrong, and don't adjust your flow rate appropriately, it's the difference of the test working properly or blowing out the seals on a $100,000 peice of equipment.
Again, if he had just methanol in his tank, and it was capped all winter into summer, I stand by my statement that it should be fine. He doesn't have a top fuel funny car here, he's got a 500-700 hp motor using methanol injection.
If you want to get into specific gravity using a $50 test bob, fine, but you better have a good knowlege of how innaccurate it really is. It has an inherrant error of +/- 2%, and that's assuming you are in a temperature controlled environment and the mixture is fully equilibrated.
You know how I test the water content of methanol? I use a $130,000 GC (gas chromatography) system that is daily calibrated, independant of ambient temperature, and accuracte down to +/-0.02% and the test takes upwards of an hour. Quite different than just measuring the specific gravity with a handheld meter that is 1. cheap, 2. innaccurate, it doesn't tell you concentrations of what's actually in there, you have to guess, 3. easily changed by ambient temperature and air density.
The original poster asked if methanol went bad, and my answer was, no, it doesn't go bad, but it does absorb moisture and he should be fine. I never got into any other discussions with him with regards to tuning or anything else.
Fact is, if you don't open the container, it won't absorb as much moisture as you think. Break fluid absorbs moisture too, but if it's sat in your car over the past 6 months is it now bad?
Specific gravity is only useful if you have only 2 components in a mixture, that are pure, and then it tells you the ratio, that's all. Be careful being too reliant on specific gravity though because I can easily make up 10 different solutions that are all clear, colorless, smell like methanol, but are a mixture of water, methanol, and various other solvents and come up with the same exact specific gravity. It's simple math. For as much heavier solvent, you need to add lighter solvent into the mix.
I do know about the flow characteristics of various different ratios of methanol and water. I use UPLC (ultra high pressure liquid chromatography) to do various purity tests and we use various different mixtures of polar and non polar solvents as a mobile phase. We see line pressures upwards of 15,000-18,000 psi and if you mix the ratio wrong, and don't adjust your flow rate appropriately, it's the difference of the test working properly or blowing out the seals on a $100,000 peice of equipment.
Again, if he had just methanol in his tank, and it was capped all winter into summer, I stand by my statement that it should be fine. He doesn't have a top fuel funny car here, he's got a 500-700 hp motor using methanol injection.
the gentleman asked a question ...
if he stipulated the vent on his fuel tank was sealed, i would agree with you.
since he didn't , one would assume its not sealed, hence the 2 pages of discussion..
all fuel systems must have a breather, equal to or larger than the fuel supply being draw from the tank for consumption in the engine. Hence the atomsphere has access to the fuel ...
so in your wisdom, maybe you should have asked IF the tank was sealed over the winter period...
i would say 90+ % of racers ( me included) wouldn't seal the tank , but would just drain the $10 worth of fuel and re fill...
easy huh ? instead of spliting straws over the perfect ideal situation , where the methanol in 100% sealed in the guys fuel tank...
$50 test bob huh ? lol
that would be good to develop fuel rates for our injected nitro engine ..lol
yer, actually part of servicing road going vehicles , is the changing of brake fluid.. most manufactures list that liquid changing in there service handbooks.
as i said, im just a dumb ***,