LSx Twinscroll Turbo Design Analysis
09-03-2011, 11:28 AM
#24
Staging Lane
Thread Starter
VVT / VGT is an entirely different topic as well, but on big displacement engines they can work well with regular boost and wastegate control tables. But people who think they can achieve better results than other highly efficient turbo systems are often mistaken.
09-03-2011, 07:08 PM
#25
I've contributed more to this sight in any one of my threads than you have in total so please don't take it too personally when I ask you to kindly go **** yourself. 
This bullshit thread does nothing but confuse the guys that are just starting out and does not apply to v8's at all.
This bullshit thread does nothing but confuse the guys that are just starting out and does not apply to v8's at all.
09-04-2011, 02:05 AM
#26
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I've contributed more to this sight in any one of my threads than you have in total so please don't take it too personally when I ask you to kindly go **** yourself.
This bullshit thread does nothing but confuse the guys that are just starting out and does not apply to v8's at all.
This bullshit thread does nothing but confuse the guys that are just starting out and does not apply to v8's at all.
09-04-2011, 03:53 AM
#27
Staging Lane
Thread Starter
I said very clearly in my first/second post that this is a terrible fit for the LSx V8, that it's an analysis. You want things to be carried out your way, fine, do it in your threads, or say something I haven't already. God forbid someone think for themselves instead of being encouraged to follow cookie-cutter formulas 
What is this world coming to...
What is this world coming to... 
09-04-2011, 11:08 AM
#29
I said very clearly in my first/second post that this is a terrible fit for the LSx V8, that it's an analysis. You want things to be carried out your way, fine, do it in your threads, or say something I haven't already. God forbid someone think for themselves instead of being encouraged to follow cookie-cutter formulas What is this world coming to...
What is this world coming to...
09-04-2011, 11:50 AM
#30
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09-04-2011, 12:50 PM
#33
Staging Lane
Thread Starter
But since I enjoy feeding the trolls:
My answer is that any idiot can pull out his credit card and buy everything to make a 10-second car. Any idiot can turn a wrench and bolt it all together. There's a million tuners out there to guarantee you'll never have to know your timing advance from your target AFR. Any idiot can do everything without having to understand how ANYTHING works. My problem with that is it makes the aftermarket car community look like a collection of proud conformist drones, which it is.
On the opposite end of the spectrum, I take a lot of time to educate my customers and readers so that THEY can make educated decisions, and not be victim to the foolish modding trends everyone else is pushing. On this board, no one has a car I develop or sell parts for, and at least we can still talk about something that uses brain cells.
Now before you say "I also believe in educating everyone and making ALL information available so people can make the best possible decisions", remember that YOU showed up in this thread and shat on us for even DISCUSSING ways of making an engine run more efficiently, and offered not one shred of intelligent commentary or rebuttal. Even if no one builds a twinscroll turbo system for the LSx, the information of how it works helps shine light on how all turbo systems work. You made fun of people for being intelligent enough to consider new ideas. Shame on you.
Hope that answers your question
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BReal408 (12-17-2023)
09-04-2011, 03:35 PM
#34
Oh no, you're completely right, I forgot to ask your permission first. I'm so sorry...
But since I enjoy feeding the trolls:
My answer is that any idiot can pull out his credit card and buy everything to make a 10-second car. Any idiot can turn a wrench and bolt it all together. There's a million tuners out there to guarantee you'll never have to know your timing advance from your target AFR. Any idiot can do everything without having to understand how ANYTHING works. My problem with that is it makes the aftermarket car community look like a collection of proud conformist drones, which it is.
On the opposite end of the spectrum, I take a lot of time to educate my customers and readers so that THEY can make educated decisions, and not be victim to the foolish modding trends everyone else is pushing. On this board, no one has a car I develop or sell parts for, and at least we can still talk about something that uses brain cells.
Now before you say "I also believe in educating everyone and making ALL information available so people can make the best possible decisions", remember that YOU showed up in this thread and shat on us for even DISCUSSING ways of making an engine run more efficiently, and offered not one shred of intelligent commentary or rebuttal. Even if no one builds a twinscroll turbo system for the LSx, the information of how it works helps shine light on how all turbo systems work. You made fun of people for being intelligent enough to consider new ideas. Shame on you.
Hope that answers your question
But since I enjoy feeding the trolls:
My answer is that any idiot can pull out his credit card and buy everything to make a 10-second car. Any idiot can turn a wrench and bolt it all together. There's a million tuners out there to guarantee you'll never have to know your timing advance from your target AFR. Any idiot can do everything without having to understand how ANYTHING works. My problem with that is it makes the aftermarket car community look like a collection of proud conformist drones, which it is.
On the opposite end of the spectrum, I take a lot of time to educate my customers and readers so that THEY can make educated decisions, and not be victim to the foolish modding trends everyone else is pushing. On this board, no one has a car I develop or sell parts for, and at least we can still talk about something that uses brain cells.
Now before you say "I also believe in educating everyone and making ALL information available so people can make the best possible decisions", remember that YOU showed up in this thread and shat on us for even DISCUSSING ways of making an engine run more efficiently, and offered not one shred of intelligent commentary or rebuttal. Even if no one builds a twinscroll turbo system for the LSx, the information of how it works helps shine light on how all turbo systems work. You made fun of people for being intelligent enough to consider new ideas. Shame on you.
Hope that answers your question
Do you believe that someone that has never run a business should educate people on how to run a business? You see, you are coming on an LSx forum with the intent to educate yet have admitted that you haven't even gotten into the game yet. You are talking ricer math in here and I would go a step further and challenge your theory on twin scroll exh housings in general.
You see, I would argue that the main reason that a twin scroll housing is more responsive over an open housing with identical A/R is that the inside volume of the twin scroll is reduced by the divider, in effect making it a smaller exhaust housing. It will also choke out earlier in the powerband than the open housing for the very same reason.
I would also argue that if there were any merit to this theory of crossing primaries from bank to bank on a large single divided housing V8 platform, some professional race team somewhere with an unlimited budget would be doing it in a tube chassis car with tons of space under the hood and dominating the field.
I look forward to seeing your rebuttal and any data which you may have to support it.
09-04-2011, 05:21 PM
#35
Staging Lane
Thread Starter
You have not refuted any of my points. But at least we're now having a productive discussion.
A side note: He who provides no data and asks for data is not playing fair. I implied pretty heavily in post #1 that to really get into this topic requires books of information. That is the trouble with it. Like trying to explain to someone designing a suspension how suspensions works. Sort of a MASSIVE TOPIC. I do not want to play that game more than I already have.
By using your own logic, you are not qualified to talk about twinscroll technology 
We can both agree that you have not been close to twinscroll technology, and that I have not been close to LSx applications. Anyways, I disclosed that and approached this from that angle up front. In my past post(s) I already explained that the lengthening of the runners leads to a loss of exhaust energy (heat) that may or may not outweigh the gain, and I already said that I did not know the answer. I already went on explaining my line of thinking from there in greater detail. I also already disclosed that this is not simple stuff, which is why it's so good to learn about it.
Grow up. A ricer is an idiot with a loud exhaust and a wing who would be lucky to run the 1/4 in 15 seconds. I see just an many ricers with Dodge Neons as Hondas. Again, grow up.
You're choosing to miss the point that twinscroll allows you to run a higher A/R and still spool earlier than the singlescroll housing it is being compared to. Your theory shows you've never given any real thought to what the exhaust pulses are doing, and how they interact with eachother. Keeping the primary and secondary diameters closer in size to eachother helps maintain pulse velocity, so more of it gets to the turbo. Keeping more separation between pulses by dividing them into two sets (or 4) allows for better scavenging. To give you an example more familiar to you, look at the methodology behind 4-1 headers vs 4-2-1 headers for N/A.
I have seen this (in real life) to such extents you wouldn't even believe...
So now you know why this statement is incorrect, and in fact the opposite can be true (if you can rev your engine out that far).
Someone already asked about doing this for drag racing (page 1), and I already answered why it would make no difference in that application. Some of us don't exclusively drive in 1/4 mile intervals, and I addressed in what situation this might possibly be beneficial (which happens to be my situation, maybe, I don't know yet )
BMW spent a fortune to do this, on a V8
But what would an OEM know about engineering...
Remember that there is more than one way to do a similar thing. People with log manifolds are going to get worse results than people with proper individual mandrel-bent header pipes. Likewise, some people have built twinscroll headers that a) suck by any standard of design, b) are fine examples of what the technology can do, c) anything in between. Nothing in car tuning is ever really apples to apples, which is why any side of any argument can come up with a 1000 examples that "prove" the other person is wrong. Frankly I'm tired of it. So going back to my initial post, do your own research. I've wasted about as much time in this thread as I can justify.
A side note: He who provides no data and asks for data is not playing fair. I implied pretty heavily in post #1 that to really get into this topic requires books of information. That is the trouble with it. Like trying to explain to someone designing a suspension how suspensions works. Sort of a MASSIVE TOPIC. I do not want to play that game more than I already have.
Do you believe that someone that has never run a business should educate people on how to run a business? You see, you are coming on an LSx forum with the intent to educate yet have admitted that you haven't even gotten into the game yet.
We can both agree that you have not been close to twinscroll technology, and that I have not been close to LSx applications. Anyways, I disclosed that and approached this from that angle up front. In my past post(s) I already explained that the lengthening of the runners leads to a loss of exhaust energy (heat) that may or may not outweigh the gain, and I already said that I did not know the answer. I already went on explaining my line of thinking from there in greater detail. I also already disclosed that this is not simple stuff, which is why it's so good to learn about it.
ricer math
You see, I would argue that the main reason that a twin scroll housing is more responsive over an open housing with identical A/R is that the inside volume of the twin scroll is reduced by the divider, in effect making it a smaller exhaust housing.
I have seen this (in real life) to such extents you wouldn't even believe...
It will also choke out earlier in the powerband than the open housing for the very same reason.
I would also argue that if there were any merit to this theory of crossing primaries from bank to bank on a large single divided housing V8 platform, some professional race team somewhere with an unlimited budget would be doing it in a tube chassis car with tons of space under the hood and dominating the field.
)BMW spent a fortune to do this, on a V8
But what would an OEM know about engineering...
Remember that there is more than one way to do a similar thing. People with log manifolds are going to get worse results than people with proper individual mandrel-bent header pipes. Likewise, some people have built twinscroll headers that a) suck by any standard of design, b) are fine examples of what the technology can do, c) anything in between. Nothing in car tuning is ever really apples to apples, which is why any side of any argument can come up with a 1000 examples that "prove" the other person is wrong. Frankly I'm tired of it. So going back to my initial post, do your own research. I've wasted about as much time in this thread as I can justify.
09-04-2011, 05:47 PM
#36
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I don't know if it's your persnality but on this thread your coming off as being very arrogant. It's like you just showed up on our street corner and started preaching, it's not that people might not be interested but your talking to a segment that can run almost unlimited amount of cubic inches and can make more power then what's realistic. Just a comment like "I've wasted about as much time in this thread as I can justify" Really? Don't go away mad just go away.
09-04-2011, 05:48 PM
#37
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i run a twin scroll turbo.
its not "properly" set up cylinder wise, i just have the left side of the motor separated from the right and they stay separate through the turbo.
it still works fine, and i have almost zero lag
its not "properly" set up cylinder wise, i just have the left side of the motor separated from the right and they stay separate through the turbo.
it still works fine, and i have almost zero lag
09-04-2011, 06:10 PM
#38
You have not refuted any of my points. But at least we're now having a productive discussion.
A side note: He who provides no data and asks for data is not playing fair. I implied pretty heavily in post #1 that to really get into this topic requires books of information. That is the trouble with it. Like trying to explain to someone designing a suspension how suspensions works. Sort of a MASSIVE TOPIC. I do not want to play that game more than I already have.
By using your own logic, you are not qualified to talk about twinscroll technology
We can both agree that you have not been close to twinscroll technology, and that I have not been close to LSx applications. Anyways, I disclosed that and approached this from that angle up front. In my past post(s) I already explained that the lengthening of the runners leads to a loss of exhaust energy (heat) that may or may not outweigh the gain, and I already said that I did not know the answer. I already went on explaining my line of thinking from there in greater detail. I also already disclosed that this is not simple stuff, which is why it's so good to learn about it.
Grow up. A ricer is an idiot with a loud exhaust and a wing who would be lucky to run the 1/4 in 15 seconds. I see just an many ricers with Dodge Neons as Hondas. Again, grow up.
You're choosing to miss the point that twinscroll allows you to run a higher A/R and still spool earlier than the singlescroll housing it is being compared to. Your theory shows you've never given any real thought to what the exhaust pulses are doing, and how they interact with eachother. Keeping the primary and secondary diameters closer in size to eachother helps maintain pulse velocity, so more of it gets to the turbo. Keeping more separation between pulses by dividing them into two sets (or 4) allows for better scavenging. To give you an example more familiar to you, look at the methodology behind 4-1 headers vs 4-2-1 headers for N/A.
I have seen this (in real life) to such extents you wouldn't even believe...
So now you know why this statement is incorrect, and in fact the opposite can be true (if you can rev your engine out that far).
Someone already asked about doing this for drag racing (page 1), and I already answered why it would make no difference in that application. Some of us don't exclusively drive in 1/4 mile intervals, and I addressed in what situation this might possibly be beneficial (which happens to be my situation, maybe, I don't know yet)
BMW spent a fortune to do this, on a V8
But what would an OEM know about engineering...
Remember that there is more than one way to do a similar thing. People with log manifolds are going to get worse results than people with proper individual mandrel-bent header pipes. Likewise, some people have built twinscroll headers that a) suck by any standard of design, b) are fine examples of what the technology can do, c) anything in between. Nothing in car tuning is ever really apples to apples, which is why any side of any argument can come up with a 1000 examples that "prove" the other person is wrong. Frankly I'm tired of it. So going back to my initial post, do your own research. I've wasted about as much time in this thread as I can justify.
A side note: He who provides no data and asks for data is not playing fair. I implied pretty heavily in post #1 that to really get into this topic requires books of information. That is the trouble with it. Like trying to explain to someone designing a suspension how suspensions works. Sort of a MASSIVE TOPIC. I do not want to play that game more than I already have.
By using your own logic, you are not qualified to talk about twinscroll technology
We can both agree that you have not been close to twinscroll technology, and that I have not been close to LSx applications. Anyways, I disclosed that and approached this from that angle up front. In my past post(s) I already explained that the lengthening of the runners leads to a loss of exhaust energy (heat) that may or may not outweigh the gain, and I already said that I did not know the answer. I already went on explaining my line of thinking from there in greater detail. I also already disclosed that this is not simple stuff, which is why it's so good to learn about it.
Grow up. A ricer is an idiot with a loud exhaust and a wing who would be lucky to run the 1/4 in 15 seconds. I see just an many ricers with Dodge Neons as Hondas. Again, grow up.
You're choosing to miss the point that twinscroll allows you to run a higher A/R and still spool earlier than the singlescroll housing it is being compared to. Your theory shows you've never given any real thought to what the exhaust pulses are doing, and how they interact with eachother. Keeping the primary and secondary diameters closer in size to eachother helps maintain pulse velocity, so more of it gets to the turbo. Keeping more separation between pulses by dividing them into two sets (or 4) allows for better scavenging. To give you an example more familiar to you, look at the methodology behind 4-1 headers vs 4-2-1 headers for N/A.
I have seen this (in real life) to such extents you wouldn't even believe...
So now you know why this statement is incorrect, and in fact the opposite can be true (if you can rev your engine out that far).
Someone already asked about doing this for drag racing (page 1), and I already answered why it would make no difference in that application. Some of us don't exclusively drive in 1/4 mile intervals, and I addressed in what situation this might possibly be beneficial (which happens to be my situation, maybe, I don't know yet
)BMW spent a fortune to do this, on a V8
But what would an OEM know about engineering...
Remember that there is more than one way to do a similar thing. People with log manifolds are going to get worse results than people with proper individual mandrel-bent header pipes. Likewise, some people have built twinscroll headers that a) suck by any standard of design, b) are fine examples of what the technology can do, c) anything in between. Nothing in car tuning is ever really apples to apples, which is why any side of any argument can come up with a 1000 examples that "prove" the other person is wrong. Frankly I'm tired of it. So going back to my initial post, do your own research. I've wasted about as much time in this thread as I can justify.
Implying that the science behind an NA header is the same. is flawed logic as the science behind an N/A header (scavenging) becomes less efficient the more back pressure is introduced. I would also argue that as long as the 8 pulses are traveling in the same direction (not colliding with each other), they would not cancel each other out, thereby netting zero gain by isolating or grouping them into 2 separate chambers.
As for the OEM, well, if they did everything to exclusively maximize performance then the aftermarket wouldn't exist.
Lastly, I reiterate that if this doesn't have any merit in the REAL LSx world of turbo charging, what's the point? We may as well talk about the vastness of the universe or what alien life might look like.
09-04-2011, 06:12 PM
#39
Staging Lane
Thread Starter
I don't know if it's your persnality but on this thread your coming off as being very arrogant. It's like you just showed up on our street corner and started preaching, it's not that people might not be interested but your talking to a segment that can run almost unlimited amount of cubic inches and can make more power then what's realistic. Just a comment like "I've wasted about as much time in this thread as I can justify" Really? Don't go away mad just go away.
09-04-2011, 06:16 PM
#40
Staging Lane
Thread Starter
Do you have a build thread or more information? Would love to hear more about it.