Failure analysis leads to rebuild along with a cleanup.
03-15-2012, 10:40 AM
#81
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Well, in this journey of 'hotrodding' over the past 12 years, I've been burned before when I paid someone else to do the work. It's one thing for paying for my own mistakes, but paying for mistakes made by someone else got tiring. Hence why I learned how to tune my own car, change my own heads/cam, how to drop the transmission and swap my own clutch, and now ultimately how to remove an engine, rebuild it, and re-install it.
I was talking with the machinist/engine builder, and I plan to do it with him. Obviously, he's doing all the machining, but he's going to explain what he's doing, and why it's critical.
For some people, it's all about the et's, while for others it's the trophies at car shows, but for me, it's the knowledge and the experience of building something myself. Yeah, it sucks when it breaks, but that's why it's not my daily driver. I work on it for a little bit, have a beer, then walk away when it stops being productive.
I was talking with the machinist/engine builder, and I plan to do it with him. Obviously, he's doing all the machining, but he's going to explain what he's doing, and why it's critical.
For some people, it's all about the et's, while for others it's the trophies at car shows, but for me, it's the knowledge and the experience of building something myself. Yeah, it sucks when it breaks, but that's why it's not my daily driver. I work on it for a little bit, have a beer, then walk away when it stops being productive.
03-15-2012, 10:44 AM
#82
It really isn't hard at all.
The easiest and best way to learn how to do it, is to download the software and play with it.
Build yourself a timing table, a VE table, a fueling table and get a hang of it and then slowly, slowly tweak and play with your tune all the while data logging it so you see everything that is going on while you do it.
Once you start data logging all the information you will ever need will be right in front of you and real time tuning makes things soooooo much easier so you can make a change and see its effect in real time.
03-15-2012, 10:48 AM
#83
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If you can do all the work on your car you can tune.
It really isn't hard at all.
The easiest and best way to learn how to do it, is to download the software and play with it.
Build yourself a timing table, a VE table, a fueling table and get a hang of it and then slowly, slowly tweak and play with your tune all the while data logging it so you see everything that is going on while you do it.
Once you start data logging all the information you will ever need will be right in front of you and real time tuning makes things soooooo much easier so you can make a change and see its effect in real time.
It really isn't hard at all.
The easiest and best way to learn how to do it, is to download the software and play with it.
Build yourself a timing table, a VE table, a fueling table and get a hang of it and then slowly, slowly tweak and play with your tune all the while data logging it so you see everything that is going on while you do it.
Once you start data logging all the information you will ever need will be right in front of you and real time tuning makes things soooooo much easier so you can make a change and see its effect in real time.
Thanks Again.
03-15-2012, 11:57 AM
#85
Alchemist have you ever spilled room temperature methanol on your skin before? It feels like someone dumped ice water on your skin, because it has such great latent heat properties. Now take that same amount of room temperature water and see what happens, I bet the methanol feels a lot cooler than the water.
Try this, hold both of your hands in front of me, and I'll pour methanol in your one hand, then water in your other hand.... sure the methanol is cooler than the water, but I bet you'd change your mind when I put a flame to both hands.
Water will help cool the chamber and exhaust valve where the methanol will only cool it till combustion happens, then it's adding to the latent heat in the chamber.
03-15-2012, 12:42 PM
#86
I don't see how you guys talk about being sluggish and complain about it. My car with the PT76 and 24* timing up until 3600 and 16-14* sloping downwards progressively from 4000 and up would light the tires within a second any time I floored it.
Added another thing I'm going to say that is 100% true.
If you're running your wastegate referenced off the manifold, or throttle body, even off the compressor wheel and using just the wastegate pressure to control boost it's going to be sloppy sluggish so far up into the rpm range you will feel that "lag" a good bit, that is true.
A manual boost controller helps to a point, but the wastegate is still opening before maximum boost is being reached.
Once you put an electronic boost controller on your car, you will really never know of turbo lag again. An electronic boost controller with CO2 will force the wastegate shut no matter what until the desired boost is met. How fast it reaches that maximum boost and how hard or soft it does it is also up to you.
Timing and leaning the AFR out and longer gears can help aid this spool-up without a electronic boost controller and by just using a manual, but still with the ebc you can hit peak boost so quickly it's not even a comparison.
Last edited by Fbodyjunkie06; 03-15-2012 at 12:49 PM.
03-15-2012, 12:52 PM
#87
Oh and you don't have to use CO2 with a quality electronic boost controller like an AMS1000, AMS500, E-boost 2, boost leash etc., but for the quickest response possible CO2 is the best thing to use, and unlike what people assume that is gets used up really really fast and that it's expensive and a pain in the *** like say nitrous may be, but it's not.
Most of the time the 2.5lb bottles last 6 months to a year and that's the guys that are racing every weekend making 10-12 passes a day on cars making double and triple the amounts of boost most street cars are running so they use more CO2. They also make 5lb. bottles over the 2.5lb ones.
Most of the time the 2.5lb bottles last 6 months to a year and that's the guys that are racing every weekend making 10-12 passes a day on cars making double and triple the amounts of boost most street cars are running so they use more CO2. They also make 5lb. bottles over the 2.5lb ones.
03-15-2012, 03:46 PM
#88
Well, this thread officially went to **** with loads of outside opinions.
The cause of detonation is heat and pressure. If you can keep heat out of the chamber you reduce the likely hood of detonating. Meoh is great at reducing the charge temperature, but once it ignites, it becomes another source of heat. Water continues to absorb heat all the way through till it becomes completely vaporized.
So to correct you, water actually absorbs more heat than meoh thanks to it's higher boiling point. The only reason it feel cooler in your hand at room temperature is because it's evaporating.
Sorry, in this instance, the laws of physics and thermodynamics and physical chemistry trump gearhead knowledge.
Here... this should help visualize this a little bit for you.
Notice how much more heat is required to vaporize water than methanol? That heat comes out of the combustion chamber, which then helps reduce knock.
Sure, if I were drag racing, and looking to squeeze out more power, I'd be running straight methanol, but I'm so far removed from trying to optimize this setup for drag racing, that it's not an issue. This is about avoiding detonation.
As for the question about being lazy with lower compression, have you ever driven a procharged 6-speed? While cruising around in vacuum, the bypass is open, and you're not making anymore power than normally aspirated. If anything, it's less because you're spinning the blower. I found that the threshold for going from vacuum to boost was around 40-45% throttle. Honestly, that's mostly how I drive my car. I am going to see if I can find a way to get the valve to start closing a little sooner as to make some more partial throttle boost. At times, it is too on/off for me, but I got used to it.
As for the constant 'run a thicker gasket', that actually causes more issues than it solves. All it does is increase your quench distance which just adds to issues in the combustion chamber. There's a reason the LS9 has 0.052" gaskets.
The cause of detonation is heat and pressure. If you can keep heat out of the chamber you reduce the likely hood of detonating. Meoh is great at reducing the charge temperature, but once it ignites, it becomes another source of heat. Water continues to absorb heat all the way through till it becomes completely vaporized.
So to correct you, water actually absorbs more heat than meoh thanks to it's higher boiling point. The only reason it feel cooler in your hand at room temperature is because it's evaporating.
Sorry, in this instance, the laws of physics and thermodynamics and physical chemistry trump gearhead knowledge.
Here... this should help visualize this a little bit for you.
Notice how much more heat is required to vaporize water than methanol? That heat comes out of the combustion chamber, which then helps reduce knock.
Sure, if I were drag racing, and looking to squeeze out more power, I'd be running straight methanol, but I'm so far removed from trying to optimize this setup for drag racing, that it's not an issue. This is about avoiding detonation.
As for the question about being lazy with lower compression, have you ever driven a procharged 6-speed? While cruising around in vacuum, the bypass is open, and you're not making anymore power than normally aspirated. If anything, it's less because you're spinning the blower. I found that the threshold for going from vacuum to boost was around 40-45% throttle. Honestly, that's mostly how I drive my car. I am going to see if I can find a way to get the valve to start closing a little sooner as to make some more partial throttle boost. At times, it is too on/off for me, but I got used to it.
As for the constant 'run a thicker gasket', that actually causes more issues than it solves. All it does is increase your quench distance which just adds to issues in the combustion chamber. There's a reason the LS9 has 0.052" gaskets.
Last edited by The Alchemist; 03-15-2012 at 04:55 PM.
03-15-2012, 08:49 PM
#91
God junkie you are a ******* retarddddd, quit posting and do tech a favor
I love how you are just running your mouth on SCR yet dont even talk about DCR with with different cam profiles
Get a clue
I love how you are just running your mouth on SCR yet dont even talk about DCR with with different cam profiles
Get a clue
03-15-2012, 09:26 PM
#92
yeah. i have been reading, if you cannot keep your IAT's down the full meth is not the way to go, but snows boost juice is 51/49 for a reason. Decreasing those temps will decrease the hurting on your wallet, and the best way to do that is to let the water do what god intended for it to do.....absorb heat and give life....and your motor will live. the real question here, is how much of a mix is needed before the temps start rising.....for example:
if you run 50/50 and your temps are ideal
then you run 70/30 and they only rise 5-15 degrees, then i think the 70 meth and the 30 water would be the way to go, but finding someone you can trust who has actually done that kind of homework is not as easy as youd hope.
as far as the compression ratio and the timing, i am going by what bob has tuned procharged cars with for a long amount of time. something tells me he knows. allout06 is running 18 on his d1 stock bottom and he gives his car hell. the ftp ws6 is running 17 on the stock bottom end and has been going for years at a lil over 600rwhp. what would be the best way to determine the temps in the combustion chambers? cant you read the plugs?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8yisNiT9yU
if you run 50/50 and your temps are ideal
then you run 70/30 and they only rise 5-15 degrees, then i think the 70 meth and the 30 water would be the way to go, but finding someone you can trust who has actually done that kind of homework is not as easy as youd hope.
as far as the compression ratio and the timing, i am going by what bob has tuned procharged cars with for a long amount of time. something tells me he knows. allout06 is running 18 on his d1 stock bottom and he gives his car hell. the ftp ws6 is running 17 on the stock bottom end and has been going for years at a lil over 600rwhp. what would be the best way to determine the temps in the combustion chambers? cant you read the plugs?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8yisNiT9yU
Last edited by I8UR4RD; 03-15-2012 at 09:37 PM. Reason: video and mispelling.
03-15-2012, 09:30 PM
#93
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03-16-2012, 07:09 AM
#95
As far as you Alchemist you flood my inbox with questions asking me ****, because you don't have a clue yourself. Ask of my opinion, waste my time and then tell me I am wrong? You are one cocky sob for someone who just grenaded a motor because of stupidity. If water is so good run your motor on it solely and see what happens. I bet we have 5 more threads in 10 days of you finding a different way to ask the same goddamn question.
You have sat in a lab your whole life like a lab rat and never experienced what it takes to go fast while you played with your chemistry beakers swirling and testing ****.
Maybe all that gasoline destroyed some brain cells.
You have sat in a lab your whole life like a lab rat and never experienced what it takes to go fast while you played with your chemistry beakers swirling and testing ****.
Maybe all that gasoline destroyed some brain cells.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Alchemist
I'm 36, and spent 4 years as a formulation/qc chemist at sunoco, then spent the past 10 years as a pharmaceutical chemist at Johnson & Johnson. If nothing else, I've learned how to sort through the crap of what some people spew.
I ask lots of questions, then decide on my own which route to go and then I can only blame myself if something goes wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fbodyjunkie06
I don't know if your PI heads have a gasket seat or a taper seat, but here is a great reference chart I found for you.
http://www.ls1.com/forums/f10/spark-...e-chart-13070/
I'd go for .28-.32 gap if you don't plan on more than 14psi.
Glad you haven't been totally brainwashed by some of the people on this website.
Continue to think for yourself like you always have and you'll do fine. LOL I say this as a 24 year old that hasn't even experienced most of life yet, to a former Sunoco Chemist lol. Anyways...anymore questions just ask.
You sound a lot like myself aside from the chemist part, I'm more of a mathematical/physics type guy that likes to break down things and then choose what I like and go with that also.
I'm in school right now to become a diesel technician, cnc machinist and I am thinking about adding welding aluminum onto that also.
I'm just starting out to say the least. Something I should have done 6 years ago, but wanted to party instead.
That's the only interaction we've had in PM's so you can come off your high horse with me "flooding your inbox".
Trust me, if I want answers to questions I have, I'm not going to rely on a 24y/o, I'm going to pick up the phone and talk to Kurt, or Ed for tuning advice. People who have made a career of doing things the right way.
The issue here is you coming in and claiming doom and gloom if I don't follow your path. Fact is, my motor went because of too much power, not because of a shitty tune or anything I did other than run too much boost. My machinist, who actually is a mechanical engineer working towards his PHD, looked over everything and didn't find any tell tale signs of detonation, or over heating. It was simply a case of the rings got too hot due to too tight of a ring gap for running boost. I showed him my logs, and he felt the tune was fine.
As far as the personal attack above at my intelligence level or killing braincells, whatever, you just showed your true colors. Now step away and just don't bother with me any more. If you can find a PM that I initiated sending to you, then post it up. I checked my 'sent' box, and I only replied to you, which I posted above.
Thanks for your infinite wisdom and help. I'm sure you can go back to helping the guys trying to run 6 second slips.
03-16-2012, 07:14 AM
#96
The problem I here is that you(Fobdyjunkie06) don't come into threads to offer input and insight. More often then not you come in acting like you know all the right answers and everyone else is wrong. Fact of the matter is there is more than one way to skin a cat in the racing/ performance world. If you came across with more of this is how I like to do things and it works well rather than trying to tell everyone what they are doing is wrong and will not work then people might not get annoyed with what you are saying.
I welcome others opions and insight as it helps get a better understanding of things over all.
The fact that you say we are sheltered from the racing world content then you are crazy. I know several LS motors that have much higher CR then you would things that see 35-40 psi
I welcome others opions and insight as it helps get a better understanding of things over all.
The fact that you say we are sheltered from the racing world content then you are crazy. I know several LS motors that have much higher CR then you would things that see 35-40 psi
03-16-2012, 08:12 AM
#97
I don't mind being questioned about my approach or what I'm planning on doing, because I've done my homework and talked to more than a few people about it and I'm confident that it'll be ok.
It's the personal attack that I don't get. Did I come in here and slander what he does for a living, nope, and I don't plan to. I respect anyone that choses a path and works hard to do that well.
It's the personal attack that I don't get. Did I come in here and slander what he does for a living, nope, and I don't plan to. I respect anyone that choses a path and works hard to do that well.
03-16-2012, 09:04 AM
#100
I know of several 10:1 93 and meth street strip cars that see 15-18 psi regulartly. Hell the one guy drives his 12k plus miles a year and takes it to the track a lot. No motor problems so far.
And the fact is my last motor and my current motor are both right around 10:1 and see 93 and pump gas. I haven't had any tune or fuel related failures yet. Just saying
And the fact is my last motor and my current motor are both right around 10:1 and see 93 and pump gas. I haven't had any tune or fuel related failures yet. Just saying