Making my car leave harder?
My (basic at best) understanding was that it was just a term used to describe pulling timing all the way down to use the heat from the unburnt fuel to spool the turbo, as opposed to the other method of giving it timing to create cylinder pressure to spool the turbo. And that both involved a set RPM limit held by the two step.
Like you said, there's more than one way to skin a cat. I have people vehemently telling me that pulling timing all the way down and using that method on the two step will do exactly what I want it to do. I'd be doing it right now, but I'm waiting for my crossover manifold gaskets to come in the mail first.
Oh, and thanks for being a tape recorder!
Like you said, there's more than one way to skin a cat. I have people vehemently telling me that pulling timing all the way down and using that method on the two step will do exactly what I want it to do. I'd be doing it right now, but I'm waiting for my crossover manifold gaskets to come in the mail first.
Oh, and thanks for being a tape recorder!
What's your afr when you leave? What are you tuning with and who tunes it? I think you have something else going on here. You should be able to get a better 60 leaving at 4lbs. Is the car spinning, bogging, is it pulling as soon as you let it go. My 302 setup was like yours, 3.08's, 26" tire, C4 tranny it would pull 1.6's without even trying. First time out with the ls setup I was getting 2.0's leaving with 1-10psi. The car wouldn't pull until well past the 60. After going over the tune I found the acceleration enrichment was adding too much fuel when I went WOT on the brake and it took the car a couple of seconds to lean out and go.
Does your car have a hand ebrake? If so use it to help hold the car, it was worth 3-4 psi on my old setup.
Does your car have a hand ebrake? If so use it to help hold the car, it was worth 3-4 psi on my old setup.
My (basic at best) understanding was that it was just a term used to describe pulling timing all the way down to use the heat from the unburnt fuel to spool the turbo, as opposed to the other method of giving it timing to create cylinder pressure to spool the turbo. And that both involved a set RPM limit held by the two step.
Like you said, there's more than one way to skin a cat. I have people vehemently telling me that pulling timing all the way down and using that method on the two step will do exactly what I want it to do. I'd be doing it right now, but I'm waiting for my crossover manifold gaskets to come in the mail first.
Oh, and thanks for being a tape recorder!
Like you said, there's more than one way to skin a cat. I have people vehemently telling me that pulling timing all the way down and using that method on the two step will do exactly what I want it to do. I'd be doing it right now, but I'm waiting for my crossover manifold gaskets to come in the mail first.
Oh, and thanks for being a tape recorder!
Would you rather just use heat from unburnt fuel to spool the turbo?
Or would you rather:
Raise cylinder pressure
Increase exhaust velocity
and raise the heat from leaning out the AFR and adding timing
I know which method I'd rather use....IMO pulling all the timing out is for clutch cars that's it. Because they cannot load the engine on the starting line to build boost, they only have one option and that is to do what they are telling you to do.
You have an auto. You can create load where they can't. Using load, increasing exhaust velocity, raising cylinder pressure and increasing the heat in the chamber from leaning out the AFR and adding timing will always spool faster than just pulling out all the timing in an automatic car. Note I said in an automatic car and not both.
Will pulling all the timing out in an auto work.....probably, but it will take a lot longer I guarantee than adding timing and leaning it out. I don't think you'll ever be able to get any boost built by pulling the timing out and if you do it will take so long that you will end up probably cooking your transmission fluid before it's over with.
Put the AFR in the low 13's when you're in vacuum trying to get some boost going.
Once you get some boost going(1-2psi) add fuel to the mid to low 12 range and let the boost continue to build as you slowly increase the amount of fuel being added. Once you get 4-6psi built wherever you're able to do that in whatever RPM range, set the two step for that rpm and have it set-up in the tune to when you hit the two step throw fuel at it to get it into the 11.2-11.4 range and pull 6-12* timing out of it then.
Once you get the turbo's going and get some shaft speed, THEN you move the combustion out of the chamber and into the crossover and merge piping by pulling timing. That is why the clutch guys do it to move the combustion event closer to the turbine and when it does light off the exhaust pulse is MUCH stronger and closer to the turbine making it spool harder and faster.
By adding fuel to it around 4-6psi in your situation you're going to make the combustion event bigger and more powerful with more fuel. Add to that it being closer to the turbine now by pulling timing out of it and moving it into the crossover, and you're going to be doing the exact same thing. Only you won't spend 15 seconds trying to spool before you can even move into the second staging light while your trans fluid is cooking like a stove pot at a crawfish boil.
I would use no less than 36* timing initially to get it into 1-2psi of boost, then bring it into the 26-28* range once you get 1-2psi. As the psi climbs to 4-6psi bring it down to 20-22*. Once you hit the two step limiter pull at least another 6-12* out of it(whatever you find makes boost faster) and throw fuel at it in the AFR range I mentioned.
Last edited by Sales@Tick; Oct 25, 2012 at 09:25 AM.
Here's the deal.
Would you rather just use heat from unburnt fuel to spool the turbo?
Or would you rather:
Raise cylinder pressure
Increase exhaust velocity
and raise the heat from leaning out the AFR and adding timing
I know which method I'd rather use....IMO pulling all the timing out is for clutch cars that's it. Because they cannot load the engine on the starting line to build boost, they only have one option and that is to do what they are telling you to do.
You have an auto. You can create load where they can't. Using load, increasing exhaust velocity, raising cylinder pressure and increasing the heat in the chamber from leaning out the AFR and adding timing will always spool faster than just pulling out all the timing in an automatic car. Note I said in an automatic car and not both.
Will pulling all the timing out in an auto work.....probably, but it will take a lot longer I guarantee than adding timing and leaning it out. I don't think you'll ever be able to get any boost built by pulling the timing out and if you do it will take so long that you will end up probably cooking your transmission fluid before it's over with.
Put the AFR in the low 13's when you're in vacuum trying to get some boost going.
Once you get some boost going(1-2psi) add fuel to the mid to low 12 range and let the boost continue to build as you slowly increase the amount of fuel being added. Once you get 4-6psi built wherever you're able to do that in whatever RPM range, set the two step for that rpm and have it set-up in the tune to when you hit the two step throw fuel at it to get it into the 11.2-11.4 range and pull 6-12* timing out of it then.
Once you get the turbo's going and get some shaft speed, THEN you move the combustion out of the chamber and into the crossover and merge piping by pulling timing. That is why the clutch guys do it to move the combustion event closer to the turbine and when it does light off the exhaust pulse is MUCH stronger and closer to the turbine making it spool harder and faster.
By adding fuel to it around 4-6psi in your situation you're going to make the combustion event bigger and more powerful with more fuel. Add to that it being closer to the turbine now by pulling timing out of it and moving it into the crossover, and you're going to be doing the exact same thing. Only you won't spend 15 seconds trying to spool before you can even move into the second staging light while your trans fluid is cooking like a stove pot at a crawfish boil.
I would use no less than 36* timing initially to get it into 1-2psi of boost, then bring it into the 26-28* range once you get 1-2psi. As the psi climbs to 4-6psi bring it down to 20-22*. Once you hit the two step limiter pull at least another 6-12* out of it(whatever you find makes boost faster) and throw fuel at it in the AFR range I mentioned.
Would you rather just use heat from unburnt fuel to spool the turbo?
Or would you rather:
Raise cylinder pressure
Increase exhaust velocity
and raise the heat from leaning out the AFR and adding timing
I know which method I'd rather use....IMO pulling all the timing out is for clutch cars that's it. Because they cannot load the engine on the starting line to build boost, they only have one option and that is to do what they are telling you to do.
You have an auto. You can create load where they can't. Using load, increasing exhaust velocity, raising cylinder pressure and increasing the heat in the chamber from leaning out the AFR and adding timing will always spool faster than just pulling out all the timing in an automatic car. Note I said in an automatic car and not both.
Will pulling all the timing out in an auto work.....probably, but it will take a lot longer I guarantee than adding timing and leaning it out. I don't think you'll ever be able to get any boost built by pulling the timing out and if you do it will take so long that you will end up probably cooking your transmission fluid before it's over with.
Put the AFR in the low 13's when you're in vacuum trying to get some boost going.
Once you get some boost going(1-2psi) add fuel to the mid to low 12 range and let the boost continue to build as you slowly increase the amount of fuel being added. Once you get 4-6psi built wherever you're able to do that in whatever RPM range, set the two step for that rpm and have it set-up in the tune to when you hit the two step throw fuel at it to get it into the 11.2-11.4 range and pull 6-12* timing out of it then.
Once you get the turbo's going and get some shaft speed, THEN you move the combustion out of the chamber and into the crossover and merge piping by pulling timing. That is why the clutch guys do it to move the combustion event closer to the turbine and when it does light off the exhaust pulse is MUCH stronger and closer to the turbine making it spool harder and faster.
By adding fuel to it around 4-6psi in your situation you're going to make the combustion event bigger and more powerful with more fuel. Add to that it being closer to the turbine now by pulling timing out of it and moving it into the crossover, and you're going to be doing the exact same thing. Only you won't spend 15 seconds trying to spool before you can even move into the second staging light while your trans fluid is cooking like a stove pot at a crawfish boil.
I would use no less than 36* timing initially to get it into 1-2psi of boost, then bring it into the 26-28* range once you get 1-2psi. As the psi climbs to 4-6psi bring it down to 20-22*. Once you hit the two step limiter pull at least another 6-12* out of it(whatever you find makes boost faster) and throw fuel at it in the AFR range I mentioned.
Excellent advise. I do have one question though. How do you get the AFR set when on the two step? My wide band shows a false lean. Are you just using the AFR number that the car is at just before the two step activates. I have zero problems spooling my little mpt70 on my 5.3 but I have an s475 going on shortly and I want to be ready if it doesn't want to spool quickly. Thanks, Martin.
All wide bands will show a false lean from un burnt O2 in the exhaust because the 2 step drops cylinders when activated.
Here's the deal.
Would you rather just use heat from unburnt fuel to spool the turbo?
Or would you rather:
Raise cylinder pressure
Increase exhaust velocity
and raise the heat from leaning out the AFR and adding timing
I know which method I'd rather use....IMO pulling all the timing out is for clutch cars that's it. Because they cannot load the engine on the starting line to build boost, they only have one option and that is to do what they are telling you to do.
You have an auto. You can create load where they can't. Using load, increasing exhaust velocity, raising cylinder pressure and increasing the heat in the chamber from leaning out the AFR and adding timing will always spool faster than just pulling out all the timing in an automatic car. Note I said in an automatic car and not both.
Will pulling all the timing out in an auto work.....probably, but it will take a lot longer I guarantee than adding timing and leaning it out. I don't think you'll ever be able to get any boost built by pulling the timing out and if you do it will take so long that you will end up probably cooking your transmission fluid before it's over with.
Put the AFR in the low 13's when you're in vacuum trying to get some boost going.
Once you get some boost going(1-2psi) add fuel to the mid to low 12 range and let the boost continue to build as you slowly increase the amount of fuel being added. Once you get 4-6psi built wherever you're able to do that in whatever RPM range, set the two step for that rpm and have it set-up in the tune to when you hit the two step throw fuel at it to get it into the 11.2-11.4 range and pull 6-12* timing out of it then.
Once you get the turbo's going and get some shaft speed, THEN you move the combustion out of the chamber and into the crossover and merge piping by pulling timing. That is why the clutch guys do it to move the combustion event closer to the turbine and when it does light off the exhaust pulse is MUCH stronger and closer to the turbine making it spool harder and faster.
By adding fuel to it around 4-6psi in your situation you're going to make the combustion event bigger and more powerful with more fuel. Add to that it being closer to the turbine now by pulling timing out of it and moving it into the crossover, and you're going to be doing the exact same thing. Only you won't spend 15 seconds trying to spool before you can even move into the second staging light while your trans fluid is cooking like a stove pot at a crawfish boil.
I would use no less than 36* timing initially to get it into 1-2psi of boost, then bring it into the 26-28* range once you get 1-2psi. As the psi climbs to 4-6psi bring it down to 20-22*. Once you hit the two step limiter pull at least another 6-12* out of it(whatever you find makes boost faster) and throw fuel at it in the AFR range I mentioned.
Would you rather just use heat from unburnt fuel to spool the turbo?
Or would you rather:
Raise cylinder pressure
Increase exhaust velocity
and raise the heat from leaning out the AFR and adding timing
I know which method I'd rather use....IMO pulling all the timing out is for clutch cars that's it. Because they cannot load the engine on the starting line to build boost, they only have one option and that is to do what they are telling you to do.
You have an auto. You can create load where they can't. Using load, increasing exhaust velocity, raising cylinder pressure and increasing the heat in the chamber from leaning out the AFR and adding timing will always spool faster than just pulling out all the timing in an automatic car. Note I said in an automatic car and not both.
Will pulling all the timing out in an auto work.....probably, but it will take a lot longer I guarantee than adding timing and leaning it out. I don't think you'll ever be able to get any boost built by pulling the timing out and if you do it will take so long that you will end up probably cooking your transmission fluid before it's over with.
Put the AFR in the low 13's when you're in vacuum trying to get some boost going.
Once you get some boost going(1-2psi) add fuel to the mid to low 12 range and let the boost continue to build as you slowly increase the amount of fuel being added. Once you get 4-6psi built wherever you're able to do that in whatever RPM range, set the two step for that rpm and have it set-up in the tune to when you hit the two step throw fuel at it to get it into the 11.2-11.4 range and pull 6-12* timing out of it then.
Once you get the turbo's going and get some shaft speed, THEN you move the combustion out of the chamber and into the crossover and merge piping by pulling timing. That is why the clutch guys do it to move the combustion event closer to the turbine and when it does light off the exhaust pulse is MUCH stronger and closer to the turbine making it spool harder and faster.
By adding fuel to it around 4-6psi in your situation you're going to make the combustion event bigger and more powerful with more fuel. Add to that it being closer to the turbine now by pulling timing out of it and moving it into the crossover, and you're going to be doing the exact same thing. Only you won't spend 15 seconds trying to spool before you can even move into the second staging light while your trans fluid is cooking like a stove pot at a crawfish boil.
I would use no less than 36* timing initially to get it into 1-2psi of boost, then bring it into the 26-28* range once you get 1-2psi. As the psi climbs to 4-6psi bring it down to 20-22*. Once you hit the two step limiter pull at least another 6-12* out of it(whatever you find makes boost faster) and throw fuel at it in the AFR range I mentioned.
This is awesome info though, makes complete sense.
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Verdad Gallardo Here's the deal.
Would you rather just use heat from unburnt fuel to spool the turbo?
Or would you rather:
Raise cylinder pressure
Increase exhaust velocity
and raise the heat from leaning out the AFR and adding timing
I know which method I'd rather use....IMO pulling all the timing out is for clutch cars that's it. Because they cannot load the engine on the starting line to build boost, they only have one option and that is to do what they are telling you to do.
You have an auto. You can create load where they can't. Using load, increasing exhaust velocity, raising cylinder pressure and increasing the heat in the chamber from leaning out the AFR and adding timing will always spool faster than just pulling out all the timing in an automatic car. Note I said in an automatic car and not both.
Will pulling all the timing out in an auto work.....probably, but it will take a lot longer I guarantee than adding timing and leaning it out. I don't think you'll ever be able to get any boost built by pulling the timing out and if you do it will take so long that you will end up probably cooking your transmission fluid before it's over with.
Put the AFR in the low 13's when you're in vacuum trying to get some boost going.
Once you get some boost going(1-2psi) add fuel to the mid to low 12 range and let the boost continue to build as you slowly increase the amount of fuel being added. Once you get 4-6psi built wherever you're able to do that in whatever RPM range, set the two step for that rpm and have it set-up in the tune to when you hit the two step throw fuel at it to get it into the 11.2-11.4 range and pull 6-12* timing out of it then.
Once you get the turbo's going and get some shaft speed, THEN you move the combustion out of the chamber and into the crossover and merge piping by pulling timing. That is why the clutch guys do it to move the combustion event closer to the turbine and when it does light off the exhaust pulse is MUCH stronger and closer to the turbine making it spool harder and faster.
By adding fuel to it around 4-6psi in your situation you're going to make the combustion event bigger and more powerful with more fuel. Add to that it being closer to the turbine now by pulling timing out of it and moving it into the crossover, and you're going to be doing the exact same thing. Only you won't spend 15 seconds trying to spool before you can even move into the second staging light while your trans fluid is cooking like a stove pot at a crawfish boil.
I would use no less than 36* timing initially to get it into 1-2psi of boost, then bring it into the 26-28* range once you get 1-2psi. As the psi climbs to 4-6psi bring it down to 20-22*. Once you hit the two step limiter pull at least another 6-12* out of it(whatever you find makes boost faster) and throw fuel at it in the AFR range I mentioned.
Would you rather just use heat from unburnt fuel to spool the turbo?
Or would you rather:
Raise cylinder pressure
Increase exhaust velocity
and raise the heat from leaning out the AFR and adding timing
I know which method I'd rather use....IMO pulling all the timing out is for clutch cars that's it. Because they cannot load the engine on the starting line to build boost, they only have one option and that is to do what they are telling you to do.
You have an auto. You can create load where they can't. Using load, increasing exhaust velocity, raising cylinder pressure and increasing the heat in the chamber from leaning out the AFR and adding timing will always spool faster than just pulling out all the timing in an automatic car. Note I said in an automatic car and not both.
Will pulling all the timing out in an auto work.....probably, but it will take a lot longer I guarantee than adding timing and leaning it out. I don't think you'll ever be able to get any boost built by pulling the timing out and if you do it will take so long that you will end up probably cooking your transmission fluid before it's over with.
Put the AFR in the low 13's when you're in vacuum trying to get some boost going.
Once you get some boost going(1-2psi) add fuel to the mid to low 12 range and let the boost continue to build as you slowly increase the amount of fuel being added. Once you get 4-6psi built wherever you're able to do that in whatever RPM range, set the two step for that rpm and have it set-up in the tune to when you hit the two step throw fuel at it to get it into the 11.2-11.4 range and pull 6-12* timing out of it then.
Once you get the turbo's going and get some shaft speed, THEN you move the combustion out of the chamber and into the crossover and merge piping by pulling timing. That is why the clutch guys do it to move the combustion event closer to the turbine and when it does light off the exhaust pulse is MUCH stronger and closer to the turbine making it spool harder and faster.
By adding fuel to it around 4-6psi in your situation you're going to make the combustion event bigger and more powerful with more fuel. Add to that it being closer to the turbine now by pulling timing out of it and moving it into the crossover, and you're going to be doing the exact same thing. Only you won't spend 15 seconds trying to spool before you can even move into the second staging light while your trans fluid is cooking like a stove pot at a crawfish boil.
I would use no less than 36* timing initially to get it into 1-2psi of boost, then bring it into the 26-28* range once you get 1-2psi. As the psi climbs to 4-6psi bring it down to 20-22*. Once you hit the two step limiter pull at least another 6-12* out of it(whatever you find makes boost faster) and throw fuel at it in the AFR range I mentioned.
Pulled the timing down to 5degrees with the twostep engaged. Got the car up to about 8psi at the line, finally 60'ed the car decent. No clue what the time was because it was midnight madness. But I cut a half second off my previous best 8th mile. Went from a 7.52 @ 103 to a 6.99 @ 102. Trans temps got up there. LOL. Not above 200, and I ran it 3 times within a half an hour. Short shifted 2nd because it started to blow the tires off at the top of 1st.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0M0P...ature=youtu.be
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0M0P...ature=youtu.be
My experience with the PTC 3200 10'' race.
stock 60e
3700lbs
stock suspension
275 nittos
leaving off idle
393rwhp bolt ons 228r.
373 gears.
93* tune
1.66 60 foot ---7.38 in the 1/8th
Koolrays is running one with a 1% loss. and it was that way the first time they sent it to him.
good luck man. fast car you have there.
stock 60e
3700lbs
stock suspension
275 nittos
leaving off idle
393rwhp bolt ons 228r.
373 gears.
93* tune
1.66 60 foot ---7.38 in the 1/8th
Koolrays is running one with a 1% loss. and it was that way the first time they sent it to him.
good luck man. fast car you have there.
What I'm thinking about one of the methods suggested, the one that involved playing with a bunch of timing and changing the AFs is that by giving it a bunch of timing, the engine is making too much power for me, and it's pushing through the converter. That's why I think I had success with the other method. Perhaps my converter is too tight for the other method.
What I'm thinking about one of the methods suggested, the one that involved playing with a bunch of timing and changing the AFs is that by giving it a bunch of timing, the engine is making too much power for me, and it's pushing through the converter. That's why I think I had success with the other method. Perhaps my converter is too tight for the other method.
Yea, with 36-38* it starts pushing through at 2825, and it's only making 3-4 psi. With the timing at 5*, it will make 6-7psi and can go to 2850. Haven't tried higher yet. Also, I like this method more because right when I let go of the two step and off the brake, it flashes up to like 3200 and it actually leaves half decently. Only changed the two step tune and te car picked up .53 in the 8th.
Last edited by CameronVic; Nov 7, 2012 at 11:07 AM.