Twins VS a Big Single??
11-06-2012, 12:58 AM
#63
Zack... Chris's claims arent exactly out of the realm of possiblity.
In all reality... his motor is probably 560-570 @ the flywheel.
Heads are great.
Cam is right... Im the one that sent him to Mark to get it.
The kit he is using is imo the best twin kit I have ever seen given the packaging restraints of the car.
NicD...
One thing you are forgetting in your claims about physics is the lb/min output of a turbo isnt linear. Put boost on an engine with greater than 100% VE.... guess what.... youll get more than double the hp for that 2nd atmosphere of pressure. Happens with turbocharged Mod motors quite frequently.
Its really a simple thing... find a compressor map of the 6165 and see if its worth 57 lb/min of air at a pressure ratio of two.
As far as the happy dyno....its a dyno dynamics....Same dyno James Short has. His isnt called The Heartbreaker for nothing.
Hes not making an unbelieveable claim given the effort put into the combination. Everything is a perfect match.
In all reality... his motor is probably 560-570 @ the flywheel.
Heads are great.
Cam is right... Im the one that sent him to Mark to get it.
The kit he is using is imo the best twin kit I have ever seen given the packaging restraints of the car.
NicD...
One thing you are forgetting in your claims about physics is the lb/min output of a turbo isnt linear. Put boost on an engine with greater than 100% VE.... guess what.... youll get more than double the hp for that 2nd atmosphere of pressure. Happens with turbocharged Mod motors quite frequently.
Its really a simple thing... find a compressor map of the 6165 and see if its worth 57 lb/min of air at a pressure ratio of two.
As far as the happy dyno....its a dyno dynamics....Same dyno James Short has. His isnt called The Heartbreaker for nothing.
Hes not making an unbelieveable claim given the effort put into the combination. Everything is a perfect match.
Last edited by LilJohn; 11-06-2012 at 01:10 AM.
11-06-2012, 08:14 AM
#65
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How about some real world help that will actually help the op? Like the fact anything around or just under 400ci will blow the tires off NA, or with light boost from a single or twins. With my 402/PT8847/3.27 (6 speed, yes I know it's coming out this winter), I can stomp it from just off idle in 3rd gear and by 3200 be sideways, almost in the ditch. This is about 8psi at that rpm, and on DR. This is 3rd gear, meaning that 1st and 2nd are completely useless. Would twins spool quicker? Yes, ok, and how much more useless would that be on the street? Any automatic guys have at least a 2800-3200 rpm converter. What happens here? Stomp right into spool, and this is with a single (but hey, they don't spool or make any kind of power, ask MM 
). And to everyone reading this who is agreeing with me, my car was this bad the last few years with an F1A.
A properly sized single or twins will get him where he wants to be easily, and he won't be able to hook the car on the street anyway.
This is providing the OP:
1)Stops changing his mind on what he expects from the car
2)Listens to reputable vendors giving NEUTRAL info (good and bad both ways)
3)Stops reading GMHP magazine articles. Lol
). And to everyone reading this who is agreeing with me, my car was this bad the last few years with an F1A.A properly sized single or twins will get him where he wants to be easily, and he won't be able to hook the car on the street anyway.
This is providing the OP:
1)Stops changing his mind on what he expects from the car
2)Listens to reputable vendors giving NEUTRAL info (good and bad both ways)
3)Stops reading GMHP magazine articles. Lol
In 1967 if you told a big block vett owner that one day you could by a vett that idled smooth would run low 11's high 10's get 25+ MPG and go 200 MPH he would call you a lyre.
Well guess what, the time has come.
This is an example of what can be done if the math is applied and the every detail is gone over and over.
Take a close look at the video, tell me how much smoke you see in the air, go on I'll wait.
You think that's a mistake? Well guess what it's not and nether is the power.
That's right, you don't, tell me how many dyno videos you see making this kind of power that the exhaust make a big cloud during and after the pull, most all of them.
We strive to do things right but you guys are so cliche that you don't notice things like
this to know it's right or wrong.
I'm sorry that it's not a LSX block 427 with Allpro heads and twin 78's on 18 psi
but it don't take that much to make this king of power whether you believe it or not.
Well guess what, the time has come.
This is an example of what can be done if the math is applied and the every detail is gone over and over.
Take a close look at the video, tell me how much smoke you see in the air, go on I'll wait.
You think that's a mistake? Well guess what it's not and nether is the power.
That's right, you don't, tell me how many dyno videos you see making this kind of power that the exhaust make a big cloud during and after the pull, most all of them.
We strive to do things right but you guys are so cliche that you don't notice things like
this to know it's right or wrong.
I'm sorry that it's not a LSX block 427 with Allpro heads and twin 78's on 18 psi
but it don't take that much to make this king of power whether you believe it or not.
They're not really missing the point. In the OP's first post he stated 'I haven't seen conclusive proof which is the better route for a streetable 9-10Second car', which is what they are answering.
The rest of your post is dead on accurate, and if the OP is looking for other advice beyond this, then he's looking the wrong way.
The rest of your post is dead on accurate, and if the OP is looking for other advice beyond this, then he's looking the wrong way.
I will only be able to build/have built ONE Project( I am scrimping/saving/working multiple business opportunities to try to get in the market) and I don't want a Supra Dyno Queen that never sees a 1/4 or 1/8 or 1 mile of prepared track much less God forbid an actual 1/4 mile of real unprepared Street.
P.S. What is wrong with GMHTP articles???
11-06-2012, 08:26 AM
#66
Rotary1307cc:
You have no idea who LilJohn is and the wealth of knowledge the man bring to the table.
This man helps guys with X275 cars, outlaw, Promod and all types of ultra fast turbos cars.
I built Turbo system for friend that has a 331 High port Bennett motor.
I ask him how fast he wanted to go, he told me mid 8's so I put him
a pair of 64mm P trim turbos on it. It almost didn't make to the dyno or the track.
Everybody he talked to had him convinced he needed a pair 78's.
The car has been 8.59 so fair on 19 psi shifting @ 6500 with a 1.50 60ft.
They have to pull a ton of timing out of it with the 7531 just to keep it
hooked up for about the first 300 feet.
He still thinks it needs bigger turbos and i keep telling him, you can't use what you have now.
I told him when you can make the car 1.25 in the 60 and turn it 8000K on 25psi
then the turbos will be considered tapped.
Bigger is not always better.
You have no idea who LilJohn is and the wealth of knowledge the man bring to the table.
This man helps guys with X275 cars, outlaw, Promod and all types of ultra fast turbos cars.
I built Turbo system for friend that has a 331 High port Bennett motor.
I ask him how fast he wanted to go, he told me mid 8's so I put him
a pair of 64mm P trim turbos on it. It almost didn't make to the dyno or the track.
Everybody he talked to had him convinced he needed a pair 78's.
The car has been 8.59 so fair on 19 psi shifting @ 6500 with a 1.50 60ft.
They have to pull a ton of timing out of it with the 7531 just to keep it
hooked up for about the first 300 feet.
He still thinks it needs bigger turbos and i keep telling him, you can't use what you have now.
I told him when you can make the car 1.25 in the 60 and turn it 8000K on 25psi
then the turbos will be considered tapped.
Bigger is not always better.
11-06-2012, 08:36 AM
#67
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11-06-2012, 09:10 AM
#69
Rotary1307cc:
You have no idea who LilJohn is and the wealth of knowledge the man bring to the table.
This man helps guys with X275 cars, outlaw, Promod and all types of ultra fast turbos cars.
I built Turbo system for friend that has a 331 High port Bennett motor.
I ask him how fast he wanted to go, he told me mid 8's so I put him
a pair of 64mm P trim turbos on it. It almost didn't make to the dyno or the track.
Everybody he talked to had him convinced he needed a pair 78's.
The car has been 8.59 so fair on 19 psi shifting @ 6500 with a 1.50 60ft.
They have to pull a ton of timing out of it with the 7531 just to keep it
hooked up for about the first 300 feet.
He still thinks it needs bigger turbos and i keep telling him, you can't use what you have now.
I told him when you can make the car 1.25 in the 60 and turn it 8000K on 25psi
then the turbos will be considered tapped.
Bigger is not always better.
You have no idea who LilJohn is and the wealth of knowledge the man bring to the table.
This man helps guys with X275 cars, outlaw, Promod and all types of ultra fast turbos cars.
I built Turbo system for friend that has a 331 High port Bennett motor.
I ask him how fast he wanted to go, he told me mid 8's so I put him
a pair of 64mm P trim turbos on it. It almost didn't make to the dyno or the track.
Everybody he talked to had him convinced he needed a pair 78's.
The car has been 8.59 so fair on 19 psi shifting @ 6500 with a 1.50 60ft.
They have to pull a ton of timing out of it with the 7531 just to keep it
hooked up for about the first 300 feet.
He still thinks it needs bigger turbos and i keep telling him, you can't use what you have now.
I told him when you can make the car 1.25 in the 60 and turn it 8000K on 25psi
then the turbos will be considered tapped.
Bigger is not always better.
11-06-2012, 10:12 AM
#71
Wheel aero technology has jumped in the last 5 years. Used to itd take a 76mm to move 90 lb/min. Today we can do that with 67/68 mm....
Every guy i help.... i wish i could rip the damn boost guages outta the cars most times.
Boost means NOTHING when it comes to judging horsepower. You cant say the higher number means more power. I tune a 331 SBF thatll make 34 psi of boost. Car is 3100 pounds and runs 5.57@123 in the 1/8.... 8.90@147 in the 1/4.....think about how rediculous that is....then realize its 8:1. Box stock heads, box stock intake, and the cam is 218/218@ .050.
Its just a comparative number between the air mass output of your compressor and the air mass consumption (ve) of your engine. To me its nothing more than a reference point so i can keep the compressors happy and prevent excessive shaft speeds.
Chris @ CBR.
Thank you for the kind words.
Zack was being sarcastic. Hes good people in my book. So is chris. I just think Some guys have had thier bs meter tripped... and thats not atypical of tech....
Problem is they have no understanding of the effort that was put into the effieciency aspect of that engine. With the heads, cam, compression and fuel... if you were to put it on an engine dyno id say it has a 103% VE. Combine that with twins.... that can spank a single turbos *** at a PR of 2 even when max flow rates are equal...and i can see it... everything would have to be perfect.... and i know Chris has put in the effort for it to be.... we discussed the cam for this thing almost a year ago iirc....
I still want him to make a banzai pass at the track thou. Id bet itd run 150 without even trying hard. Lol
11-06-2012, 11:41 AM
#72
Problem is they have no understanding of the effort that was put into the effieciency aspect of that engine. With the heads, cam, compression and fuel... if you were to put it on an engine dyno id say it has a 103% VE. Combine that with twins.... that can spank a single turbos *** at a PR of 2 even when max flow rates are equal...and i can see it... everything would have to be perfect.... and i know Chris has put in the effort for it to be.... we discussed the cam for this thing almost a year ago iirc....
I still want him to make a banzai pass at the track thou. Id bet itd run 150 without even trying hard. Lol
I still want him to make a banzai pass at the track thou. Id bet itd run 150 without even trying hard. Lol
I do plan on making a ***** out pass with it. The tracks close in another couple weeks so it will have to wait until next year. I will call you when I head out. I like to provide feedback to those who helped. By the way, glad to see you here on tech.
