LilJohn

No. It would not.

Driveabilty is in the tune more than it is the camshaft durations. If you know what you are doing on the keyboard.... you can make anything driveable. Hell adjusting the timing at idle can change how hard the cam "lopes".

The cam should be setup to feed the motor properly. Intake duration shares a fairly close corelation to cubic inch...well at least it should. Short changing yourself here by not running the proper lobe to give you the valve events the motor needs to breathe just isnt worth it to me.

5 bucks says that orange car that Vengance just finished with the 25x/25x duration stick drives just as well as yours did.

Ive got a cam thats 260/262 in a Twin T76'd 429 inch SBF that has just as good driveability characteristics as any one elses car. If you could actually test things like that without human opinion skewing it.... id put that car up against anything.


Of course this is all just my opinion. People are gonna think what they want on the small cam/right cam debate. Swaying that opinion is damn near impossible. Hot rodders are quite the stubborn bunch.

LilJohn

Yea... just keeping it real huh...lol

I stated it was not backed up on the same dyno.

227 lobe in a 427 making 580 rear wheel...im assuming Ls7 type head? I cant see a cathedral port being able to move that kind of air in tgat "short" of a duration.

Kudos to you for that... to come within 20 rwhp of what Tooleys car made(599) with 27 fewer inches and a cam with 24 degrees less duration....is no small feat or an easy thing to do. Used his 454 for reference because i honestly dont bother to keep up with the high hp N/A stuff... its the only reference point i have.... turbos are much more fun.

qqwqeqwrqwqtq

Negative on the above and zero chance a mid 250's duration cam is going to have the same drivability, unless they were solid roller.

qqwqeqwrqwqtq

Your customer told you sorry to burst your bubble, it went from a mustang dyno to a dynojet.

He also told you another local car swapped from the same mustang dyno to a dynojet and picked up 220rwhp with no other changes, so how could that possibly be any validation for your camshaft?

You then come on here saying you picked up 137rwhp, conveniently leaving out the dyno information. You were directly told it went from a mustang to DJ and when asked if it was the same dyno your response is "I don't believe it was".

Sorry but you are completely full of **** and you posted that to intentionally deceive people.


Also, the cam shouldn't be spec'd around the goals? Just put the biggest cam in there and **** driveability because it's all in the tune? Sure, maybe if it's a race car with a huge converter but not with a manual trans and a .50 overdrive.

It's laughable that you think tuning has more to do with driveability than cam specs. I guess when you have a few more of those 260+ duration cams out there the shops responsible for tuning them will be glad to hear it should drive like stock when it leaves, who cares how much overlap it has or where IVC is.

If you take a specific CI and turbo combination you will only need so much cam to max out the turbos. Twin GT3582R's on 427ci does not need 24x+ duration to efficiently max out the turbos, at that point you are just softening up the low end and mid range for no additional power up top.

And the 427/NA reference was an LS7 Z06.

LilJohn

Real nice Jim. Compliment you and you flame me.

All this talk about specing stuff around "goals"

Ask me to do a combo with a pair of GT3582's... i sure as hell wont be putting it on a 427 inch shortblock. 68/61 wheels on a 427? Yea...if you underturbine a given CI/or over ci a given turbine... itd had better be cammed properly... but why do that? To have full boost by 1500 rpm and have it done by 6000? Thatd make a nice engine for a tow truck.

You do things your way... hey thats fine... But ill never subscribe to that theory. Why use 427 inches when 364 wouldve done the same thing and been more efficient doing it.

Big converter automatic street cars are what i deal with. So yes thats my mind set. I like Big turbine wheels, tight A/R housings, and a cam, converter, gear designed to work together.

Ill never reccomend someone build an under turbined under cammed big inch motor.

Since you like hanging out on the bullet...PM Ott308 and ask how his old setup compares to his new one.

And as far as tuning these big cams...Feel Free to call Errol at TPS in West Palm Beach Fl and ask him how big of a pain in the *** the cam was to tune in that SBF.


Have a GREAT day.

Sales@Tick

iTrader: (3)

That is the LS1tech way.

stock48

iTrader: (17)

Bottom line is there are more than one way to go about building these combos to get desirable results. It's just a matter of opinion, and where you want your power, and how you want power to come in. There are applications where the "tow truck" power curve works really well, and ofcourse on a big converter race car that drives on the street when it needs too is better suited with the 6500+ curve. To me the worth of a combo is et, and mph vs compressor mm vs weight. Chassis dyno numbers and boost psi is for pulling dicks... But others are free to see things differently.

qqwqeqwrqwqtq

John, my apologies for being rude, I did not acknowledge your compliment so for that, thank you.

Now aside from that, many things you are posting is in contradiction from things I and many others on this board have accomplished over the years, so whether you are directly addressing anyone or not, you are being insulting.

Let's break this down. You come on here saying-

-228 duration on the intake side of a twin turbo 427 is "screwing the pooch"
-It's "screwing the pooch" because you changed the cam and gained 137rwhp
-Tuning has more influence on driveability than cam specs

Now as someone who builds and tunes these combos I'm not a fan of misinformation.

-228 degrees duration @.050 on a 427 with decent size turbos is enough cam to easily make 1100rwhp and have great driveability. This is in no way screwing the pooch.

-Your cam didn't pick up 137rwhp. How much did it gain? Who knows. Go spin it up on the original Mustang dyno and find out.

-Tuning does go a long way in sorting out the driveability in a combination but to say it's more tuning than cam spec's is just plain wrong. No way in hell you're running a hyd roller with 250 or 260+ duration @.050 and the resultant amount of overlap compared with something much smaller and ending up with the same driveability. Much more overlap and a later IVC is not going to drive as smooth as a smaller cam no matter who tunes it, especially in a car with a manual transmission. You're going to completely tune out the effects of less low rpm cylinder filling, dynamic compression and more reversion? Hell no.

Now you want to call my twin turbo Z a nice engine for a tow truck? At 13psi boost it made 850rwhp at 6100-6400 and by 7000rpm it was still 819rwhp. (Didn't run any more boost on the dyno as I was having traction issues with the stock tires).

And again, same car ran 152.9mph on 16psi. That was years ago and still holds the fastest manual transmission trap speed as far as I know-

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z...fast-list.html

Why do it? A wide power curve, ultra fast transient response and stock type driveability in a car that traps 150+ on moderate boost seems like some good reasons to me.

If you think that combo would end up with full boost by 1500rpm and done at 6k you better go back to the drawing board.

I'm not saying you have no knowledge I'm sure you have picked up some combos and have happy customers. You are entitled to your opinion as to what type of combination -you- prefer but that doesn't mean other peoples preferences are bullshit. On top of that, if you're going to post up supposed gains of a cam try and make it at least the same type of dyno or let the information be known.

Not too much to ask I think, good day to you as well

427

iTrader: (3)

Jim, Louis:
You are stronger men than I!!!!!


Original poster:
Jim at Speed inc does cars that do exactly what you want daily, call him and follow his advice and you will have more fun than is legal!


Kurt

LS1NOVA

iTrader: (12)

Sorry OP.

The facts that I know, all relating to the above 06 GTO 427 mentioned above.

The original 228/232 cam in the above car performed fine. I felt power was left on the table though.

Louis sent me a 15k+ engine that didnt have the pushrod length measured and it hung all the valves open and had no cranking compression and then they got pissed when we wanted them to reimburse us what it would cost up to get the same job done in thier shop. (A couple hours labor and a set of pushrods)

Then the Comp link bar came apart and trashed the engine. Comps fault. Louis lost the receipt and it took literally 20+ phone calls just to get the part warrantied.

John spec'd a new cam for the car. Dyno number aside, it totally transformed the car from a docile twin turbo street car to a f'n terror. Same driveability. Easy guy to work with and great service.

Slowhawk

iTrader: (12)

First, I agree with intm8 on cams. The ones listed on the first few posts were way too big for turbo. Actually to big for na for me.

Xer cams work fine on fi. Been using them for 10 years on fi cars.

Since ls7 heads are used I would go 228 intake and something mid to high 230's exhaust.

LilJohn

Being on my phone this wont be easy and may take a post or two to cover all points...

First... the 429 sbf is a solid roller.... that point did get left by me.... 30 major intake 32 major exhaust. The seat to seat timing is, obviously, not as crazy as it would be with a hydraulic in the 50 range. In my haste to reply i did forget that.

Insulted? Over a difference of opinion? Really? I know i am zealous in defense of my thought process and theorys... but to claim to be insulted over my opinion seems a tad bit mellow dramatic.

I stand by my opinion of a 228/232 cam in a 427 with TFS 235's and a Fast 102. I said what i believe. I will own that proudly. Just like you have proven a 227 intake lobe can make good power with an LS7 head... its been shown time and time again the cathedrals need more duration and IVC. With my desire to select turbines that will achieve a 1:1 boost to backpressure ratios ive found ( and others work whom i look to for reference) they can cam very similarly to what they do N/A. Adjustements for overlap and other aspects not withstanding. So you use a duration similar to what you've proven worked well N/A...and so did I.....


The testing on the GTO was obviously out of my hands.... I posted it... you roasted my *** in typical LS1tech fashion.... i screwed up even saying a word about... but I will own that too. It wont happen again.... Ill make sure the next time i decide to post something...it will stand solid to the scrutiny.... I will include the color of the dyno operators underwear both before and after if need be.

Now as far as me calling other people preferences bullshit...when did i say that? You did see the You do things your way...hey thats fine statement a couple posts back right?

Ive not tried to take one thing away from anything your doing. Its not my way...because we start from opposite ends of the spectrum. We probably wont ever agree. And thats ok. Youve taught me my lesson on the scrutiny of this place though...

Now can we all just meet in the middle round the campfire and sing cumbahya??

Bazman

If I need more than 15lb boost to make 1000rwhp from a mild LS7 and a cam any bigger than 228 on the intake I will be disappointed. With modern engine management and injectors of course a much bigger cam can be tamed to drive around in with ease, and on boost they may wake up in an uncontrollable hurry as they come on song. But the lower boost/smaller cam car making the same power is just going to be better to live with if regular street use is important. It will eat the big cam alive off boost, which at that power level would be 99% of street duty. No offence meant to anyone, just giving my opinion.

427

iTrader: (3)

Lil, this is what you said once that causes me to post. You are being insulting to those that know another way to do something, and spreading bad information by saying something that is proven does not work. You have a belief that will make some high dyno numbers, but it is not the only way. I am certainly not a cam guru, but I have built a few and learned a bit about what works and what does not. I have driven vehicles that I put boost systems on about 300,000 miles now and I can tell you transient response makes the car/truck more fun than big hp numbers at high rpm. Most will also run faster with wider power bands when you find yourself at the track.

Kurt

Sales@Tick

iTrader: (3)

If you're 100% certain your methods work the best, stick with them and keep doing them. If another guy is 100% certain his methods work the best, he will stick with them and keep using them.

Let it be and respect another man's opinion even if you disagree with it. There are a million ways to skin a cat, but arguing about it, calling each other names and trying to make someone look bad only ends up hurting yourself in the end.

If Jim has a method he likes, he will use it. If Louis has a method he likes, he will use it. If Kurt has a method he likes, he will use it. It's that simple guys...just let it be. You three have gotten to where you are by using your methods you think work best. Now others are trying to do the same, but it makes it very stressful when you're constantly under attack for your opinion on things and having to dodge insults along the way.

Just let it go...

LilJohn

Kurt.... ever experience a combination that wouldnt make any more power no matter what you did tune wise? Plenty of compressor left. Plenty of fuel. Timing changes affecting midrange results but not peak? 2 or 3 psi increase in boost netting 5 hp....

qqwqeqwrqwqtq

John, you didn't use those exact words. I think it was a fair deduction unless I've somehow misread the following?


The OP came on here asking for cam advice on an LS7 headed engine which is why every example I have given was based on.....an LS7 headed engine. You continue to mention cathedral ports or solid roller small block fords which is fine but not as relevant.

Now saying a 228 lobe on a turbo 427 is "sooooo freakin wrong" and whoever did it "screwed the pooch bad" and my Z06 motor would be nice for a tow truck is insulting yes, especially when your basing it off of dyno numbers that mean nothing and your interpretation of my combo is nowhere near what it actually is in reality, a proven combination.


Kurt, we are definitely on the same page here!!!


I'm looking at an entire combination and choosing each component to meet the goals set forth. For me personally that means, exactly that ^^ fast transient response and a wide powerband. If necessary I will leave some high rpm hp on the table in order to get a combo to run exactly how I want it to otherwise.

John, I see your style is more like the stuff I would spec for something that is more race than street oriented and you're certainly entitled to your opinion but when you deliver it in a way that's stepping on everyone's toes and back it up with meaningless dyno numbers all I'm saying is don't be surprised to get a response.

Martin, agreed on your last post.

Kumbaya motherf#$kers!

Sales@Tick

iTrader: (3)

I'm glad we see eye to eye there.

I have nothing but respect for Louis(although I think he views me otherwise), Kurt and you Jim.

I've never said anything out of the way to any of you, and don't ever plan on it. I'm trying to pay my dues as a member of this aftermarket community and learn how to do quality work. I don't see how discrediting another sponsor will further your sales, yourself or make you look any better than the person your discrediting. I may be looking at the big picture all wrong, but that's how I was brought up, and that is to respect those that are older than me and those that have paved the way for the things I enjoy and am trying to learn and do myself.

Anyways, this thread has gone to the wayside enough already. John is a friend of mine, and I don't want to see him totally discredited and tossed around like a punching bag as much as I don't want it done to myself.

Hope you guys have as great a day as I'm going to have.

OTT308

There is definately more than one way to skin a cat. This topic almost needs its own thread. All I know is I have asked LilJohn to spec a cam for my 95% street driven full weight 61 chevy belair. I had a small T4 turbine turbo on it and changed the turbo to a 96mm T6 S480 and at the same time fitted LilJohn's camshaft. All I can say in my experience is wow!! The ****** spools up quicker than the old T4!! And I have no issues of drivability on the street.

Bazman

There is no argument from me that a cam in the 240's on a 427 or 250's on a 440+ motor with proper tune and combo is going to be an absolute beast. No question that setup should haul the mail.

But turbos offer a lot for street guys who like to cruise a lot, and even go inter-state etc. The smaller cam engines get great mileage, and can be very low maintenance, with excellent response and shove at normal traffic speeds and off boost. It makes 1000rwhp and 30mpg at cruise possible.

For some, like me, that kind of efficiency is cool. For others, they want to shake and bake. It's our money, so as long as we are happy with what we get, it is all good.