High HP(1500hp+) EFI/E85 Fuel Sytems, what are you guys using? Pics welcome
03-31-2013, 06:38 PM
#21
TECH Apprentice
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Aus
Posts: 303
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Will definitely follow this thread. I haven't built my fuel system yet, but i have gathered some parts.
Aeromotive 11105 belt drive fuel pump kit and the 13113 efi regulator.
80L fuel cell with sumped 2x8-AN feed.
Will Y those two 8's into a 10 and gravity feed the pump which will run off the motor basically sitting on the crossmember in the stock truck AC position.
What pre-pump would be good for this setup?
My reasoning for belt drive is as mentioned above, no current draw or voltage drop problems. For me it's over 7 hours to a decent track. 2 hours to a bad one.. That's a long time for a big electric pump to be running. And i'm going to want to have some fun on the way. Every fuel vendor i asked if their gear would be good for a prolonged use, they said no. Either it would cook the fuel or just die from being on for so long(overheat).
I'm only chasing 1200rwhp on E85 but i've overkilled most of my build so far.
Aeromotive 11105 belt drive fuel pump kit and the 13113 efi regulator.
80L fuel cell with sumped 2x8-AN feed.
Will Y those two 8's into a 10 and gravity feed the pump which will run off the motor basically sitting on the crossmember in the stock truck AC position.
What pre-pump would be good for this setup?
My reasoning for belt drive is as mentioned above, no current draw or voltage drop problems. For me it's over 7 hours to a decent track. 2 hours to a bad one.. That's a long time for a big electric pump to be running. And i'm going to want to have some fun on the way. Every fuel vendor i asked if their gear would be good for a prolonged use, they said no. Either it would cook the fuel or just die from being on for so long(overheat).
I'm only chasing 1200rwhp on E85 but i've overkilled most of my build so far.
03-31-2013, 08:04 PM
#22
Thanks guys for all the thoughts so far, it's really appreciated. I've been fighting with different ideas for some time now and I really would like to get it over with so I can start installing the fuel system so everything is in place to drop the engine, trans and turbo kit in. Trying to minimize the amount of work I have to do after the drive-train goes together.
The only thing I don't like about the belt drive is the priming deal. I know it would be the ultimate way to go, and the AEI motor plate I'm using accomodates one. The couple customers I spoke with about the big inline pumps all said that the Magnafuel 4703 would definitely do what I need it to do, but I have been eyeing a Weldon. I like what Ryan K suggested a lot and think I may go with something similar to that. Ryan, do you have issues with regulating base fuel pressure below 50psi with the -8 return? Do you also have any pictures of how the 255 is run in parallel to the Weldon? I talked to a few guys that with the 4703 pump, -10 feed and -8 return couldn't regulate base fuel pressure below 52psi on gasoline. I plan on running the -10 because of that, but wanted to hear your thoughts.
Anyone used a Turbosmart FPR? Anyone see an issue with doing the -12 or even -16 fitting in the bottom of the tank to feed the fuel pump? Anyone have ideas for sumping a plastic tank? Really don't want to spend 600 bucks on a pre-fabbed sumped metal tank.
Ryan you said you had a fuel cell, where is it mounted and how big and how much was it?
The only thing I don't like about the belt drive is the priming deal. I know it would be the ultimate way to go, and the AEI motor plate I'm using accomodates one. The couple customers I spoke with about the big inline pumps all said that the Magnafuel 4703 would definitely do what I need it to do, but I have been eyeing a Weldon. I like what Ryan K suggested a lot and think I may go with something similar to that. Ryan, do you have issues with regulating base fuel pressure below 50psi with the -8 return? Do you also have any pictures of how the 255 is run in parallel to the Weldon? I talked to a few guys that with the 4703 pump, -10 feed and -8 return couldn't regulate base fuel pressure below 52psi on gasoline. I plan on running the -10 because of that, but wanted to hear your thoughts.
Anyone used a Turbosmart FPR? Anyone see an issue with doing the -12 or even -16 fitting in the bottom of the tank to feed the fuel pump? Anyone have ideas for sumping a plastic tank? Really don't want to spend 600 bucks on a pre-fabbed sumped metal tank.
Ryan you said you had a fuel cell, where is it mounted and how big and how much was it?
Last edited by Sales@Tick; 03-31-2013 at 08:10 PM.
03-31-2013, 08:21 PM
#23
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Shelby twp, MI
Posts: 1,514
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why not just run 2 large electric pumps? A short section of -10 or -12 line to the pumps. Y them both into a single line that runs to the front of the car. That way you could run 2 of the slightly smaller Magnafuel or Weldon pumps and still have a ton of volume potential. Just a thought.
03-31-2013, 08:31 PM
#24
TECH Fanatic
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,425
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why not just run 2 large electric pumps? A short section of -10 or -12 line to the pumps. Y them both into a single line that runs to the front of the car. That way you could run 2 of the slightly smaller Magnafuel or Weldon pumps and still have a ton of volume potential. Just a thought.
03-31-2013, 08:50 PM
#25
Teching In
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is this for a street car or a drag car. I am a pretty big fan of the 4303 which is the biggest pump magnafuel has that is recommended for street duty. Also I believe the 4303 is what a lot of the big power e85 lambo guys are running.
03-31-2013, 09:12 PM
#26
Not 1500whp capable like you requested, but I could easily add another pump. Setup is -10AN feed, -8AN return, Magnafuel 4303, custom 25 gallon fuel cell, ID2000s. I think it'll make a little over 1000 wheel with this setup on e85.
Last edited by westtexasbuff; 03-31-2013 at 09:17 PM.
03-31-2013, 10:25 PM
#29
West Texas Buff I really like that set-up! That's very nice!
This is a 95% drag car that will be raced in Ultra Street/Ultimate Street and Real Street 275 1/8th mile drag racing. I want to be able to drive it at least 100-150 miles though on a tank of gas. The Magnafuel 4703 is THE biggest pump Magnafuel makes(2500 N/A HP on gasoline so 1750-1800hp F/I and 1300-1400hp on ethanol) and it is 700 and some chage retail cost. If I ran two smaller pumps I'd be spending around 1000 retail easily and most likely more than that. I was going to run a pump speed controller, but Ryan's idea to use the 255 or a Bosch 044 like someone else mentioned would be cheaper. I just need to know if running a -12 fitting from the bottom of the tank is going to work and how to plumb the smaller 255/044 into the system without causing a restriction.
You guys running large secondary boost referenced fuel pumps, are you having to do anything special in the VE fueling tables to compensate when the pump kicks on or is it a smooth transition?
This is a 95% drag car that will be raced in Ultra Street/Ultimate Street and Real Street 275 1/8th mile drag racing. I want to be able to drive it at least 100-150 miles though on a tank of gas. The Magnafuel 4703 is THE biggest pump Magnafuel makes(2500 N/A HP on gasoline so 1750-1800hp F/I and 1300-1400hp on ethanol) and it is 700 and some chage retail cost. If I ran two smaller pumps I'd be spending around 1000 retail easily and most likely more than that. I was going to run a pump speed controller, but Ryan's idea to use the 255 or a Bosch 044 like someone else mentioned would be cheaper. I just need to know if running a -12 fitting from the bottom of the tank is going to work and how to plumb the smaller 255/044 into the system without causing a restriction.
You guys running large secondary boost referenced fuel pumps, are you having to do anything special in the VE fueling tables to compensate when the pump kicks on or is it a smooth transition?
03-31-2013, 11:39 PM
#30
10 Gallon fuel cell custom mounted:
In this picture you can see the cell, with the -12 90 degree fitting, the big *** prefilter , and the weldon pump and a -10 An Check valve.
Here you can see how i took the discharge of the filter to the Walbro pump and the Weldon:
then in this one you can see the warbro and the weldon merge back together in the t-fitting and -10 an towards the front of the car, you can also see the -8 return:
Here is an onther picture of the back:
Here you see the y-fitting to the 10 micron filters (again I have two to minimize flow loss) from the filters it goes up to the back of the rails:
Then from the rails to the regulator:
The discharge of the regulator goes out the bottom and back to the cell.
When both pumps are running, I don't have any fuel pressure creep. Also, the fuel system is sized to max out 8 160lb injectors with a 45 psi base pressure.
Ryan
In this picture you can see the cell, with the -12 90 degree fitting, the big *** prefilter , and the weldon pump and a -10 An Check valve.
Here you can see how i took the discharge of the filter to the Walbro pump and the Weldon:
then in this one you can see the warbro and the weldon merge back together in the t-fitting and -10 an towards the front of the car, you can also see the -8 return:
Here is an onther picture of the back:
Here you see the y-fitting to the 10 micron filters (again I have two to minimize flow loss) from the filters it goes up to the back of the rails:
Then from the rails to the regulator:
The discharge of the regulator goes out the bottom and back to the cell.
When both pumps are running, I don't have any fuel pressure creep. Also, the fuel system is sized to max out 8 160lb injectors with a 45 psi base pressure.
Ryan
04-01-2013, 04:28 AM
#31
9 Second Club
The simple option for two pumps, is simply 2 outlets on the main tank. One for the "big" pump and one for the daily pump.
As for a sump arrangement, cant see any reason why you cold have a fabbed aluminium sump built that would bolt onto the bottom of the tank. Assuming you can get access inside to bolt and gasket it.
I'm currently re-doing my fuel system layout at the minute, which is compromised by only a single outlet on my alloy tank. Cant afford to rectify that at the minute so doing this.
Simple fuel manifold to feed both pumps
Tank to Manifold.
Manifold to 2 x Holley Billet 260gph 10/40 micron filters ( undecided but have 40 for now ), into 2 x Bosch 044's and will sort another similar manifold before sending to the engine via 1/2" line
I see no real reason to run filters after these. Each filter has 3x the capacity of the Bosch pump anyway, so even with a 10 micron element, cant see it posing any problems
Ive been using a single Aeromotive filter and 100 micron before both pumps now for several years and no problems.
When I modify the tank next winter, will probably add a 3rd pump or else boost a pump for extra capacity for future use.
So whilst the above is with 044's, no reason you cant do 1 x 044 and 1 x big pump. You would need a check valve in the big pump line for when it is not in use.
As for not being able to get pressure down. I'd say it's less down to the return line, and more down to the FPR itself not having adequate flow ability.
As for a sump arrangement, cant see any reason why you cold have a fabbed aluminium sump built that would bolt onto the bottom of the tank. Assuming you can get access inside to bolt and gasket it.
I'm currently re-doing my fuel system layout at the minute, which is compromised by only a single outlet on my alloy tank. Cant afford to rectify that at the minute so doing this.
Simple fuel manifold to feed both pumps
Tank to Manifold.
Manifold to 2 x Holley Billet 260gph 10/40 micron filters ( undecided but have 40 for now ), into 2 x Bosch 044's and will sort another similar manifold before sending to the engine via 1/2" line
I see no real reason to run filters after these. Each filter has 3x the capacity of the Bosch pump anyway, so even with a 10 micron element, cant see it posing any problems
Ive been using a single Aeromotive filter and 100 micron before both pumps now for several years and no problems.
When I modify the tank next winter, will probably add a 3rd pump or else boost a pump for extra capacity for future use.
So whilst the above is with 044's, no reason you cant do 1 x 044 and 1 x big pump. You would need a check valve in the big pump line for when it is not in use.
As for not being able to get pressure down. I'd say it's less down to the return line, and more down to the FPR itself not having adequate flow ability.
04-01-2013, 07:36 AM
#33
TECH Enthusiast
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Alexandria, Ky
Posts: 541
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Martin,
You are aware of my build currently. I'm going to be on methanol which is a little more flow requirements than ethanol or E85. My setup is below:
-front mount 7.5gal cell. (two outlets, one 1.25" and one 8an*)
-1.25" line feeding bottom of Aeromotive Black Atomic pump (12.5gpm)
-12an from top of pump to the Sys1 10 micron SS filter
-12an from outlet on filter to a 12an Y to two 12an's
-those two 12an lines split again with 12an to two 10an Y's (leaving four 10an lines)
-those four 10an lines feed the front and back of the two fuel rails
-from the center of each rail a 10an return goes to the 13113 Aeromotive Reg to two of the four side ports
-12an return out the bottom of the reg to the front cell
-*the 8an outlet on the cell is to feed a 255L pump then to a check valve
- from the check valve to one of the two un-used ports on the side of the reg and back feeding the rails for priming and pressurizing the rails before start up.
hope that makes sense.
You are aware of my build currently. I'm going to be on methanol which is a little more flow requirements than ethanol or E85. My setup is below:
-front mount 7.5gal cell. (two outlets, one 1.25" and one 8an*)
-1.25" line feeding bottom of Aeromotive Black Atomic pump (12.5gpm)
-12an from top of pump to the Sys1 10 micron SS filter
-12an from outlet on filter to a 12an Y to two 12an's
-those two 12an lines split again with 12an to two 10an Y's (leaving four 10an lines)
-those four 10an lines feed the front and back of the two fuel rails
-from the center of each rail a 10an return goes to the 13113 Aeromotive Reg to two of the four side ports
-12an return out the bottom of the reg to the front cell
-*the 8an outlet on the cell is to feed a 255L pump then to a check valve
- from the check valve to one of the two un-used ports on the side of the reg and back feeding the rails for priming and pressurizing the rails before start up.
hope that makes sense.
04-01-2013, 04:34 PM
#34
10 Gallon fuel cell custom mounted:
In this picture you can see the cell, with the -12 90 degree fitting, the big *** prefilter , and the weldon pump and a -10 An Check valve.
Here you can see how i took the discharge of the filter to the Walbro pump and the Weldon:
then in this one you can see the warbro and the weldon merge back together in the t-fitting and -10 an towards the front of the car, you can also see the -8 return:
Here is an onther picture of the back:
Here you see the y-fitting to the 10 micron filters (again I have two to minimize flow loss) from the filters it goes up to the back of the rails:
Then from the rails to the regulator:
The discharge of the regulator goes out the bottom and back to the cell.
When both pumps are running, I don't have any fuel pressure creep. Also, the fuel system is sized to max out 8 160lb injectors with a 45 psi base pressure.
Ryan
In this picture you can see the cell, with the -12 90 degree fitting, the big *** prefilter , and the weldon pump and a -10 An Check valve.
Here you can see how i took the discharge of the filter to the Walbro pump and the Weldon:
then in this one you can see the warbro and the weldon merge back together in the t-fitting and -10 an towards the front of the car, you can also see the -8 return:
Here is an onther picture of the back:
Here you see the y-fitting to the 10 micron filters (again I have two to minimize flow loss) from the filters it goes up to the back of the rails:
Then from the rails to the regulator:
The discharge of the regulator goes out the bottom and back to the cell.
When both pumps are running, I don't have any fuel pressure creep. Also, the fuel system is sized to max out 8 160lb injectors with a 45 psi base pressure.
Ryan
I really like your set-up! I hope you don't mind if I copy it! LOL
One last big favor from you and I really appreciate you taking the time to post up pictures of your set-up, but you think you could PM me or post up a list of fittings you used? Again, I really appreciate the help!
BMF, if I was going to do a belt drive it would be the way you have yours set-up, I just think at this point in time that the electric pump is the way to go for me. If it was a 100% drag car that needed to make more than 1500rwhp I would go to the belt drive.
The reason I need this fuel system to be capable of handling this much fuel volume, is if these LSA heads hold water at 1000rwhp like I think they will, I'm going to buy a GT5518 and try to do something really stupid with it.
04-01-2013, 05:26 PM
#35
Thanks for the compliments. I did not make it, Jon @ DB Rods did. I wish I could weld like that, lol I just got a china tig for simple stuff. I wanted a big fuel cell to be able to make long trips to other cities for events, this is primarily a street car so that's why I asked Jon to make it as large as he could, we came out with 25 gallons. If only I could get this thing tuned, got wiring issues right now :/
04-01-2013, 06:03 PM
#36
Thanks for the compliments. I did not make it, Jon @ DB Rods did. I wish I could weld like that, lol I just got a china tig for simple stuff. I wanted a big fuel cell to be able to make long trips to other cities for events, this is primarily a street car so that's why I asked Jon to make it as large as he could, we came out with 25 gallons. If only I could get this thing tuned, got wiring issues right now :/
