Meth/E users, how much time?
9 Second Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 13,616
Likes: 185
From: Norn Iron
It only bogged because you injected far too much.
That's the thing though, with water you can get the cooling and anti-detonation without having to dump shitloads in.
Like with any fuel, it's all about using appropriate amounts for the application. If you use the wrong amount it isnt the fuel's fault. It's the tuner/operator.
But with methanol, it really wont matter how much you inject, you shouldnt experience a negative side, but then at what point should you just run methanol as a fuel in the first place ?
That's the thing though, with water you can get the cooling and anti-detonation without having to dump shitloads in.
Like with any fuel, it's all about using appropriate amounts for the application. If you use the wrong amount it isnt the fuel's fault. It's the tuner/operator.
But with methanol, it really wont matter how much you inject, you shouldnt experience a negative side, but then at what point should you just run methanol as a fuel in the first place ?
i talked with my tuner who uses meth and is a procharger dealer about putting the meth after the maf obviously and before the iat sensor . He said he has tried it and its not optimal . What happens then is you spray your meth onto your iat and it cools down instantly while everything else in the engine is still hot or warm and hasnt cooled down as fast as the iat sensor . So he does maf , iat , then meth right before the tb .
Im going to have meth added and tuned on my formula , made 416 before on a 4-6 lbs setup with tons of belt slip to now a setup that should have 8-9 along with meth .
Im going to have meth added and tuned on my formula , made 416 before on a 4-6 lbs setup with tons of belt slip to now a setup that should have 8-9 along with meth .
I think I have slow responding IAT, because prior to the meth injection, during a 3rd gear blast, my iat would only go up 3-5 degrees. Maybe my FMIC is working well, who knows, but even now with the meth/water injection, I only see a small decrease in temp according to the iat as well. So I don't tune based off IAT's.
i also dont believe that spraying directly on the iat sensor only shows the temperature of the liquid. ive proved that wrong.
my last turbo setup, with water injection, the water nozzles were less than 2" from the iat, and one nozzle was directly opposite, which means it was spraying the iat sensor.
i was spraying ice water, with ice cubes in it, lol. you would think that spraying onto the iat sensor, it would read close to 32 degrees(or whatever the temp of ice is) but i was seeing 124 degrees(without water injection its close to 300 degrees at 15psi), which tells me that vaporisation is damn near instantaneous and that ice water injection works amazingly to cool the charge.
I can't speak with direct experience in the situation at hand but I know a bit about heat exchange. We use huge shell and tube heat exchangers in the plant I work in. We use anhydrous ammonia to cool water instead of meth to cool air. The ammonia boils at -28F under 1 bar. The exchange does not happen instantly unless the temp differential is very large. That explains why more cooling is done in the chamber. It's nearly 10 times hotter in the chamber than in the intake. That flashes the meth to a gas instantly. 150F in the charge pipe will be much slower to flash it.
As several of you have hit on pressure is an extremely important factor as well. Lowering the pressure on the shell side in one of our exchangers 5psi can drastically swing the efficiency of the exchange. 5psi in the manifold vs 30 is going to make a very big difference. The heat in the chamber should still be enough to flash it just as it passes the intake valve though. That's a hard piece of data to extract unfortunately.
As several of you have hit on pressure is an extremely important factor as well. Lowering the pressure on the shell side in one of our exchangers 5psi can drastically swing the efficiency of the exchange. 5psi in the manifold vs 30 is going to make a very big difference. The heat in the chamber should still be enough to flash it just as it passes the intake valve though. That's a hard piece of data to extract unfortunately.
i also dont believe that spraying directly on the iat sensor only shows the temperature of the liquid. ive proved that wrong.
my last turbo setup, with water injection, the water nozzles were less than 2" from the iat, and one nozzle was directly opposite, which means it was spraying the iat sensor.
i was spraying ice water, with ice cubes in it, lol. you would think that spraying onto the iat sensor, it would read close to 32 degrees(or whatever the temp of ice is) but i was seeing 124 degrees(without water injection its close to 300 degrees at 15psi), which tells me that vaporisation is damn near instantaneous and that ice water injection works amazingly to cool the charge.
my last turbo setup, with water injection, the water nozzles were less than 2" from the iat, and one nozzle was directly opposite, which means it was spraying the iat sensor.
i was spraying ice water, with ice cubes in it, lol. you would think that spraying onto the iat sensor, it would read close to 32 degrees(or whatever the temp of ice is) but i was seeing 124 degrees(without water injection its close to 300 degrees at 15psi), which tells me that vaporisation is damn near instantaneous and that ice water injection works amazingly to cool the charge.
I agree you aren't measuring liquid, but that doesn't necessarily prove the vaporization is instantaneous in that situation.
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It only bogged because you injected far too much.
That's the thing though, with water you can get the cooling and anti-detonation without having to dump shitloads in.
Like with any fuel, it's all about using appropriate amounts for the application. If you use the wrong amount it isnt the fuel's fault. It's the tuner/operator.
But with methanol, it really wont matter how much you inject, you shouldnt experience a negative side, but then at what point should you just run methanol as a fuel in the first place ?
That's the thing though, with water you can get the cooling and anti-detonation without having to dump shitloads in.
Like with any fuel, it's all about using appropriate amounts for the application. If you use the wrong amount it isnt the fuel's fault. It's the tuner/operator.
But with methanol, it really wont matter how much you inject, you shouldnt experience a negative side, but then at what point should you just run methanol as a fuel in the first place ?
TECH Apprentice
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 361
Likes: 1
From: australia
Meth injection
Aaaaahhhh
Ok
On dyno results years ago, over 100deg c can be pulled out of iat
With in 6 inches of runner
Next picture is not mine, but I'm sure the owner is fine me using it...
Pyro gauges used on dyno and logged
Btw
Something not said here
Compression creats heat too
Put your hand on shop air compression discharge...
Major point also
It's the size of fuel droplets that allows the vaporisation as well
Cheers
Aaaaahhhh
Ok
On dyno results years ago, over 100deg c can be pulled out of iat
With in 6 inches of runner
Next picture is not mine, but I'm sure the owner is fine me using it...
Pyro gauges used on dyno and logged
Btw
Something not said here
Compression creats heat too
Put your hand on shop air compression discharge...
Major point also
It's the size of fuel droplets that allows the vaporisation as well
Cheers
Last edited by crashly; May 30, 2013 at 08:09 AM.
TECH Apprentice
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 361
Likes: 1
From: australia
You will only see about half the benefit of using meth if you don't adjust timing and fueling when using it... Yes, it is safer, and you will get the benefit of the cooler charge - but if you really want the full benefit, you have to lean it out and add timing to optimize it...
I've found different
More fuel, get a/f down around 3.4-3.5 ( depending on your static comp
)Then add timing, read base ring and earth strap on plug
TECH Apprentice
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 361
Likes: 1
From: australia
So has anyone actually compared charge temps with both, measured close to the intake valve ?
Which lets face it...will get skewed readings because of the liquid fuel too.
Even charge temp measured close to a meth nozzle. How much is actually an accurate reflection of charge temp, and how much is simply some cold methanol hitting the sensor ?
Which lets face it...will get skewed readings because of the liquid fuel too.
Even charge temp measured close to a meth nozzle. How much is actually an accurate reflection of charge temp, and how much is simply some cold methanol hitting the sensor ?
Measured there, top of runner, turbo discharge...
And ...have a think about relationships of pressure , temp , and what happened to both ....
Back in the 90's , down nozzles were banned from some blown alcohol classes, cause it put fuel right on the intake valve....
That makes you think more, that maybe it was advantage..
Sprint cars have down nozzles , na fuel system....
If fuel is still a liquid , once compression has occurred, unless you have a pro mag 44 etc or msd8 /10... The fuel cycles thru the motor and your bscf numbers get thrown off...
Spark plug is true temp reading tool...
Staging Lane
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
FWIW I have a totel gasoline flow potential of 6,000 cc/min into my 6 cylinder engine and I spray 1,320 cc/min of 50:50 water methanol by volume. So, approx 22% of my total fueling comes from my water/methanol injection - works great.
