I'm sure some of you have read the news, but Rob Raymer of Quarter-Mile Perfomance has decided to withdraw as a sponsor of LS1TECH. QMP has been a sponsor on this site since it started in November of 2001. This action has stemmed from the argumentative threads that typically surround QMP on this site, as well as some Administrative disagreements.

I'll keep this thread open if you guys have any final comments to share, but I will warn you right now that if any individuals get immature in this thread I will have my finger on the 30-day ban button. I'm sick of the arguments and childish crap I've witnessed in this particular forum, and I'm sure Rob is also. We are supposed to be an LS1 community here, and its a shame when certain people find entertainment in harrassing eachother in our community.

Rob, I wish you and QMP the best of luck. If you wish to return as a sponsor on LS1TECH, please contact me. But, until then I'll only ask you to participate as a non-sponsor on this site, and to adhere to the non-sponsor policies regarding solicitation, contact info, etc...

Regards,
Tony Whatley

 

 

Bummer, I hate to see this happen.

The funny thing is that I'll bet all these guys would get along fine if they met in person instead of on the internet. I hate the BS that goes on when there is a keyboard as a means of casual interaction.

Businesses have to bite their tongues with customers on a daily basis and that is why you don't see very many vendors interacting on these boards. They just get bashed at some point and look worse than if they were just silent. This is why you just don't hear much from vendors.

Rob was taking a different approach than most. He was acting like a regular member and not necessarily trying to win customers by playing the customer/member is always right game. He seemed to be calling it like he honestly saw it, but that was not what some people wanted to hear.

I'm sure there were mistakes made on all sides of the situation, but it does seem like the hagglers should have been banned from bashing Rob’s product.

Anyway, that is how I see it, but I obviously only have a partial view of all the things that went on.

I hope Rob comes back after things cool down. He made this area of the site more interesting.

 

If anyone questions any of my actions/words I would LOVE to hear from you pm/email and I will appologize/inform as necessary.

 

It's sad how it had to turn out this way. If you liked or disliked Rob, he was still a valuable asset to the LS1 community. I agree with QuickSilver2000, that this only happened because it was over the internet. People can't read emotion, you can only see emotion. From there things can only spiral out of control. Lets all do our best to never let this happen again.

 

Ditto. But you'll have to email me at QMPSales@aol.com.

 

This is pathetic. One hell of a guy to post results/combos/tuning for turbo systems on LS1s. Now, all that information will be held back from now on. Don't go.

 

Well go figure I'm surprised he lasted this long. This is why manufactures don't post on these forums. It is hard enought to run a business and manage employees and try to show a profit and then put up with the bullshit from guys sitting at home picking on there computer putting you, your product, your business down. Myself and Rob used to work togeather and I still come to the forums and look to see what everyone is up to as far as performance is concerned. I think you guys have gone through all of us now so I guess your on your own now. I don't always see eye to eye with Rob but he is a good business man and gave everyone anything he has learn along the way for free. So good luck Rob and take care.... George Scott @ Turbo Technology.

 

MM,

I’m sure you have some valid reasons for being pissed at Rob, but why do you continue to make Rob’s business your business. The title of this thread says QMP, yet you have to keep throwing in your two cents. It just seems wrong to me (but I’ll admit I don’t have all the facts).

I’m not a big Rob Raymer fan or anything. I’m just a guy who shows up once in a while and enjoyed reading what he had to say (I learned some things). He provided some very useful data points in his posts. I don’t think everything he said was the gospel, but he was contributing in what I thought was a positive way (more than I can say for most vendors).

There are always customers who have a really bad experience with a vendor and end up with a personal vendetta against them. No matter what you do us typical mortals are going to **** a few people off, those are just the facts of life. The trick is to move on and forget about it, but it does not seem like you will let that happen.

I guess you guys won by running off Rob, but it seems pretty selfish to me. Maybe you were right, but who really cares except you guys.

One more thing, I do think the moderators/admins let this go too far. Nobody is perfect, but I hope they do something different next time around.

 

Everyone should know where I stand. Damn shame to see Rob leave this site but he's put up with those guys long enough so I agree if he doesn't feel like his needs are being tended to as a sponser, he has every right to do what he did. Hopefully he'll pop in and let us know how his car is doing. Any word on the 'hawk progress Rob?

 

Damn this sucks that it had to go this far with Rob. He gave us a lot of tech info that he didn't have to. He shared all the progress with his kit, pushed it for all of us to see and drool over and still was slammed for sharing info. To those who didn't believe his progress why bother even posting? Do you doubt that the LS1 can be made to put out those high HP/TQ numbers, I don't. He wasn't secretive about what he was doing or how he was doing it, I know of a few who are like that.

But Rob, the advice I gave you along time ago in one of your posts far far away was to treat the bashers to one of these and move on. That lil dude helps get the aggression out and puts the bashers at a disadvantage because they no longer can get at you, if they do one back f-it you did it first.

I would have to agree with QuickSilver 100% on that statement. This forum lacks from decent moderation/admin when **** hits the fan like this, I am all for self moderation but when it goes south someone needs to put the brakes on fast. The reason as I see is that the mods are simply not around enough. Harlan is almost MIA, Mike is here but not that active in the FI forum. There are plenty of FI forum users that provide tons of active participation on a daliy basis here, and that show to be fair and responsive individuals. Is it time for a mod change? Who knows but that has to be discussed amongst admin or among the members of the FI board. I for one don't like to see a person who contributed what he could, go.

There will be other turbo LS1 F-body kits coming into the market this season, I hope you all will treat the ones who make them with a bit more respect than what was shown to Rob. Like it has been said before...it benefits us to have more kits hit the market than to have just a 1 or 2 especially if they are providing free info/tech to all of to see and to use as a starting point.
Take it as you will. That how I see it, my opinion, my .02
Good luck Rob, don't vanish, keep us posted... there are a few of us interested in that silver bird of yours.
J

 

I'm with Quicksilver2002 and frcefed98 on this. The admins have let way too much **** go on in this forum, as well as the whole site. I know it's the administrators' way to have free speech and to not convert to the naziism that LS1.com was, but there is a point at which they have to realize that someone needs to step in. This site just lost the only sponsor of the 80 it had that actually does R&D for forced induction and sold a kit. Now it's left to individuals who dont give up nearly as much info nor post.

 

George, I personally appreciate your response. And I did get the message you called, but believe it or not, I completely forgot to call you back (I sincerely had every intention to, and I still will).

I completely understand what you mean now about trying to make a profit and support the internet sites, and I see why you left it long ago. It's nearly impossible! To date, I have yet to profit .01 from our turbo kits. First off, we priced them too low for the parts we use. Secondly, after all of the tooling costs, R&D, public defending, bashing, etc, etc, how could I make a profit?? It's 2:45am and I'm still up doing what I always do...defending myself. I'm sure I don't have to tell you George, but all of my time is worth something too. I neglect my family, and many times my friends, doing what I think I love. This is the last day.

I never did this because I thought I was going to make a fortune and live happily ever after. I did it because I was good at making cars fast, and because I had a passion for it. Quite honestly, I didn't even expect to still be living now. Back in August of '99 I was diagnosed with an extremely rare liver disease for which there is no cure. The disease spread into an area of my brain also, but has yet to cause me any additional problems (though I know many of you will argue that). Anyway, at that time, I was given only 6 months at best to live. Since I physically couldn't work, I started an internet business to pass the time. I designed the Direct-Flo airlid, added more parts to the site, etc, etc., and before I knew it, I needed a shop larger than my spare bedroom. All during this time I was taking experimental drugs, visiting specialists all over the Country, and spending most of my days at the hospital (nights were for the internet sites).

I got tired of never getting any real answers from the doctors and medicines that that wouldn't allow me to function. So I quit going to them, and started going back to church. I admit, I have strayed faaarrrr away from that now. For that, I'm ashamed. I don't know why I've been able to live this long, nor do the doctors. They only tell me that I'm basically in a "remission phase."

My point is, whether I live another 40 yrs, or die next week, I won't live it the way I have been. I was wrong for posting the way I have on many occassions. I was wrong for letting them get to me the way they have. But I'm not wrong for leaving this site. After reading all of the posts from people, as well as the COUNTLESS emails of support, I also know that the Admins of this site were wrong for letting it come to this.

I volunteered my help to the people of this site for 2 1/2 years now. And NEVER asked for anything in return. But last week I privately asked PSJ to support me by not allowing the same people to continue bashing me and my business. I also let him know how inappropriate I thought it was that he let one of his friends/Moderators (Harlan) call me a liar and "flip me off" publicy. PSJ insisted that Harlan was not out of line in doing that because "he's a laid back kinda guy, and I'm argumentative". Whatever that has to do with anything . When I pointed out the threads from RICE ETR and Warbird once again bashing us, he made excuses that "he was out of town and didn't see them", "Harlan was out of town", "nobody saw those posts in time", blah, blah, blah. Those posts were left up all weekend and some even still remain. The writing on the wall is clear. It was made even more clear tonight when my posts (which weren't even "bashing" posts) were locked or removed within just minutes of me posting them! Yet MM took it upon himself to make another bashing post against me at 10:07pm tonight, and it's still up! Why hasn't that been seen, deleted, or locked? If it hasn't, why not? Because I'm no longer a paying sponsor????

PSJ, you've outgrown your britches IMHO.

 

Rob you were a wealth of knowledge. Thank you for all of the information you shared.

 

Rob its a shame to see you leave, and from all of us on ls1tech you are welcome back anytime as a sponser or just a user of this board.
Ill keep you in my prayers, to hope your liver condition stays away permenently.

I hope you come out to the N&S shootout too.

Now dont go profiling MM has done a good job on biting his tonque on this board, after the truce had been made he held up pretty well to his part.
He just offered to make amenze, but it got took the wrong way.


this is one of the reasons they made me a moderator. Its was difficult for the mods to be on all the time, catching every controversial thing, we cant be on here 24-7, on each post there is a report a post botton, if something is contorversal then hit the botton.
Will editing everyones post fix the problem? i know some should be for damage contorl, bu tthen users get mad cause their edited. Its up to each person as they respond.
ALso we didnt want the natzism that was on ls1.com, there was issues that needed to be delt with. Alot of the issues were delt with a very crappy attitude, very imature. alot should have been delt with by PM or better yet a phone call.
and it was even worse that the members who wernt involved with the situation, got involved and antagonized the whole ordeal.

wether who was right and who was wrong is besides the point now what is done is done, the comunity needs to move on and stop holding grudges.

let not let this tear the ls1 communty apart, but rather merge us closer together, everybody do their part, and lets just get along

 

Its a damn shame...................

 

Rob, hopefully you will still continue to post. I am not a sponsor and I post. I think there was blame on both sides but the main problem was lack of moderation. Harlan is laid back and doesn't get on here as much. Most of the crap should have been stopped by a mod before it got so out of hand. I think everyone knows I basically worship Harlan but he is not very outspoken and very reluctant to step on toes. Good qualities for a friend....not too good for a mod. We are all adults and shouldn't need a mod but it is too easy to get fired up when talking about a subject that we all feel so passionately about. Hopefully you will keep posting Rob and get some enjoyment out of LS1TECH.

 

thanks smokin, yes you're exactly the reason i posted quicksilver. 'running him off, bashing, haggling' is something i would like the opportunity to respond to in as much detail as possible because as you admitted you do not have all the facts. i'm offering help, closure, clarity and appology to anyone thinking they need to make posts like you did.
i would tend to think the people who are not intersted in discussing it be the ones who shut up about it allready.

 

Takes a big man to open up like Rob has. He has been an awesome source to the LS1 FI community. And he is a great guy "face-to-face" as many of you assume. All the comments by George and Rob are true regarding "business and the web". You really have to tread lightly when you are on the business side. It is easy to get wrapped up in defending your products. Information and opinions are so easy to make known these days, and one can spend hours just typing and justifying what you are doing.

Every shop has critics, nut-huggers, and indifferent people that could care less. It's apparent that Rob takes so much pride in his work that it is just too hard for him to "say nothing" when the nay sayers are critical of his efforts. I am by no means taking sides in this. And Rob has said some things that make me cringe and think, "Why did he say that?" But it is just a reflection of Rob's personality and dedication when it comes down to it. When you believe in yourself, you feel obligated to defend yourself. It is human nature. Some are able to repress it, and others don't feel the need to.

Folks, regardless of whether Rob is a sponsor, owns a shop, or whatever, he is a human, and does human things. Being a sponsor does not make you incapable of acting as a human, or having human shortcomings. You all have them. At least Rob is a big enough guy to admit it publicly.

 

Well, for the record, after repeated warnings did not chill certain individuals, I warned them the next time would be a ban (temporary).
They persisted and I banned them. I got hauled on the carpet, so to speak, for that and the person got reinstated.
Moderators only have so much power, and without authority to back up their position, they are like a rent-a-cop with a stick fighting gangstas with guns.

I know the philosophy of this board is to not be so censorish. But, there were clear lines drawn IMO.
If you don't act on those lines, just like with a child who you lay rules down to, they will always push the envelope if you are not consistent about enforcing those rules.

I respect that admins want the board to be a free society. And I am honored they felt I am prone to see both sides and moderate fairly.

I've consistently said I felt the criticism of Rob was unfair and over-the-top.
I HATE it that children with a computer can bring down businesses and screw up a whole market for others.
Some businesses need to be "checked" by the customers. But, I feel this was not such a case.

I have veteran acquaintances that were under such mental and emotional pressures that they seemed irrational to discuss things with if they were too stressed. It may be hard to understand why Rob eventually got so belligerent, but it really isn't hard to understand for me. Running a business, trying to eek out a living is high-pressure stuff. Perhaps Rob got belligerent with these guys as time went along. But, I can remember... even go back to threads... where for a LONG time, Rob would answer whole threads by guys "critiquing" and bashing his product with a reply as simple as, "I agree, very nice write-up. Notes taken. Thank you."

This was even in the face of at least two or three other guys posting insinuating remarks, "hmmmmmm I see", etc, etc. Immature foolishness.

I hope, if nothing else, we can come away with this experience where if someone else who is a vendor comes on the board and takes the time to be one of us, teach us and even provide us with their version of our beloved product, FI, that we can slap down efforts to jab and stab him. I can think of a couple vendors where there is at least 90% concensus they are taking advantage of their customers. This was not such a case. It is obvious to me it is difficult to make money off a kit such as Rob's. I appreciate that he did it even in the face of roaring opposition from some of the people he was trying to serve.

It will help if some of you that PM'd me or emailed me had the guts to voice your opposition to these instigators publicly on the board when it happens.
When certain loudmouths get all the attention, and no complaints comes from anyone except from the person they are attacking, it creates a public impression that the moderator or admin is caving to a vendor because they are a source of financial revenue. Well, guess what... one vendor doesn’t do it. But, average Joe doesn't think of that. Some of these guys are skillful at weaving their stories and bringing out only the negative aspects of a vendor or his product.

Some of you may come on now and voice support for Rob and disdain for the tactics used by those who bashed him. But, don't you dare slam the moderators who have had to put up with, agonize over and plead throughout this whole ordeal.