Finally dyno'd the car.
11-24-2013, 08:43 PM
#62
Ok, afr question with regards to widebands... my AEM is mounted about 10" after the collector on the driver's side. At the dyno, he put the widband in the tail pipe and he was reading about 0.4-0.6 leaner than I was. Could be the difference in location, or the calibration of the two, but either way, I wanted to error on the side of caution and keep the afr in the low 11s. Granted, low 10s is too rich, and I've pulled fuel out, but I ran out of time on the dyno and left it as is. I pulled a little bit out from 5000+, but again, if the methanol ever fails, I'm still safe.
If we get a warmer day this week, I'll try doing a couple pulls on a deserted Mexican highway and see what it looks like on the street. I've read that the tune can be a little leaner on the street than a dyno as well.
If we get a warmer day this week, I'll try doing a couple pulls on a deserted Mexican highway and see what it looks like on the street. I've read that the tune can be a little leaner on the street than a dyno as well.
11-25-2013, 06:59 AM
#64
From what I've read, I think it has to do with the way HPtuners logs the extra inputs at a higher rate than the other parameters, and as such, you get a lot of flutter in the readings. Look at the wideband and the fuel pressure and you'll see that there's quite a bit of noise in both. It's like putting the smoothing factor at zero for the dyno, you get noise. It probably doesn't help either that the fuel pressure sensor is right at the back of the rail, right after the #8 injctor at the end of the line. So no doubt pressure is dropping a little, but the sensor is picking up the worst case scenario.
11-25-2013, 09:41 AM
#66
TECH Enthusiast
One thing to mention, even though your AFR is rich in 4th, try to log a pull on the street in 3rd and see if it leans out... BELIEVE IT OR NOT.... I have seen that in the lower gears, for some reason the engine runs leaner then taller gears, contrary to what you would think it would do...
For instance on my car when it had the stick tranny, I was around 10.8-11.0 AFR in 4th.... Yes 3rd was 11.0-11.5 average, 2nd was 11.5-12.0.... 1st was 12.5-12.8 afr. I'm not sure why but this was logged several times on the drag strip when the car was hooked up..
With the auto I see the same thing but not quite as severe.... 1st gear is around 12.0-12.5 afr, 2nd is around 11.5 richening up to 11.0, then 3rd(1:1) is 10.5-10.8...
I don't really worry about the lower gears because it goes through them so quick its not a lot of time spent at the leaner afr.
Its hard to duplicate this on the street since the tires are spinning and not loading the motor but... Just something I thought I'd bring up before you start leaning it out too much.
Probably why Halltech and Pro EFI allow tune by gear.
Also like you mentioned, your afr is not "10.2", you just happen to have the cursor in a dip in the graph. The graphs/smoothing are not great in HPT so you kind of just have to eye ball average from the highs/lows in the chart. Your afr is probably around 11.0 until around 6000 or so ( I cant tell rpms by your chart) but then it goes fat, probably around 10.5 ish average from 6000 til the end of the pull...
That is too rich for efficient power. Just going from 10.5 to 11.0 afr would gain you 30+rwhp.
If you shoot for 11.0 afr average, even if it leans out in the lower gears, you'll still be safe. I will say though, do your final afr tuning on the road, not just on the dyno, you make see some difference between the two. My car is always a little leaner on the road then on the dyno. Stick with your wideband in the collector... Tail pipe sniffers are junk, I can't believe any shop would still actually use them. Use your own wideband meter and stick with it, tune from it and stay consistent with it.
You have a great combo and its plenty safe, but I would still want to clean up the top of the range just a hair.... But make a pull with no air filter and see what it does.... Its gonna surprise you...
For instance on my car when it had the stick tranny, I was around 10.8-11.0 AFR in 4th.... Yes 3rd was 11.0-11.5 average, 2nd was 11.5-12.0.... 1st was 12.5-12.8 afr. I'm not sure why but this was logged several times on the drag strip when the car was hooked up..
With the auto I see the same thing but not quite as severe.... 1st gear is around 12.0-12.5 afr, 2nd is around 11.5 richening up to 11.0, then 3rd(1:1) is 10.5-10.8...
I don't really worry about the lower gears because it goes through them so quick its not a lot of time spent at the leaner afr.
Its hard to duplicate this on the street since the tires are spinning and not loading the motor but... Just something I thought I'd bring up before you start leaning it out too much.
Probably why Halltech and Pro EFI allow tune by gear.
Also like you mentioned, your afr is not "10.2", you just happen to have the cursor in a dip in the graph. The graphs/smoothing are not great in HPT so you kind of just have to eye ball average from the highs/lows in the chart. Your afr is probably around 11.0 until around 6000 or so ( I cant tell rpms by your chart) but then it goes fat, probably around 10.5 ish average from 6000 til the end of the pull...
That is too rich for efficient power. Just going from 10.5 to 11.0 afr would gain you 30+rwhp.
If you shoot for 11.0 afr average, even if it leans out in the lower gears, you'll still be safe. I will say though, do your final afr tuning on the road, not just on the dyno, you make see some difference between the two. My car is always a little leaner on the road then on the dyno. Stick with your wideband in the collector... Tail pipe sniffers are junk, I can't believe any shop would still actually use them. Use your own wideband meter and stick with it, tune from it and stay consistent with it.
You have a great combo and its plenty safe, but I would still want to clean up the top of the range just a hair.... But make a pull with no air filter and see what it does.... Its gonna surprise you...
11-25-2013, 09:48 AM
#67
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Ok, afr question with regards to widebands... my AEM is mounted about 10" after the collector on the driver's side. At the dyno, he put the widband in the tail pipe and he was reading about 0.4-0.6 leaner than I was. Could be the difference in location, or the calibration of the two, but either way, I wanted to error on the side of caution and keep the afr in the low 11s. Granted, low 10s is too rich, and I've pulled fuel out, but I ran out of time on the dyno and left it as is. I pulled a little bit out from 5000+, but again, if the methanol ever fails, I'm still safe.
If we get a warmer day this week, I'll try doing a couple pulls on a deserted Mexican highway and see what it looks like on the street. I've read that the tune can be a little leaner on the street than a dyno as well.
If we get a warmer day this week, I'll try doing a couple pulls on a deserted Mexican highway and see what it looks like on the street. I've read that the tune can be a little leaner on the street than a dyno as well.
Tuning by gear is very important on a turbo car where loads are vastly different. For instance, I can go through first gear and only see 14 psi, yet if I went through 3rd gear I'd be at 28 psi. The ECUs offering load by gear or boost by gear, etc., are accounting for turbo cars where loading can have a decent impact on how the motor runs. A lot of factory ECU's also have gear based compensations and variable red lines so perhaps that's at play too.
11-25-2013, 10:17 AM
#68
Nice numbers and I agree throw some timing at it. Im at 17 deg and still safe but Im e85. Tuner says Im good to 18-19 np. Any e85 where you live?
Last edited by fotoboy; 11-25-2013 at 11:06 AM.
11-25-2013, 11:56 AM
#69
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Fotoboy we do not have E85 very available at all and Brien's fuel system is not really set up for it at all. He'd need new lines and all.
I'd say he should leave it as is in terms of timing and just lean it out some prob has 25 - 30 hp worth of fuel laying in it.
I'd say he should leave it as is in terms of timing and just lean it out some prob has 25 - 30 hp worth of fuel laying in it.
11-25-2013, 12:18 PM
#70
I do need to pull out fuel, and actually already did it and flashed it in, but I'm not sure when I'll be able to do some datalogging as today's high is only supposed to be 31 degrees, and Toyo R888s don't like cold temps, they actually come with a warning sheet saying not to run them in sub 32 degree temps.
QUOTE:
Consumer Advisory
TSD-07-001 November 15, 2007
Recommendations on the
Proper Use, Handling, and Storage of Toyo Tires
This advisory applies only to the following products:
All Proxes® R1R™
All Proxes R888™
All Proxes RA1™
This advisory addresses the proper storage of these tires in colder climates. As seen in the picture below, tires stored
and operated at sub-freezing temperatures, i.e., at or below 32°F (0°C), will lose rubber compound flexibility and may
experience cracking when operated under such conditions.
Tread cracking due to low temperatures
WARNING!
The rubber compounds used in these tires have unique properties that, when compared to other tires, can cause them
to lose some of their flexibility when stored and operated at sub-freezing temperatures. This loss in flexibility can lead to
potential cracking and other damage to the tire.
TO MINIMIZETHE CHANCES OFTHIS HAPPENING, CONSUMERS AND INSTALLERS ARE ADVISED TO FOLLOW
THESE INSTRUCTIONS DURING SUB-FREEZING CONDITIONS:
1. Do not operate the car with these tires, as the tires may suddenly fail.
2. Always store these tires indoors at temperatures above 32°F (0°C).
3. Before mounting or dismounting, store these tires for at least 24 hours in a temperaturecontrolled environment
of 68°F (20°C) or warmer.
4. Remove these tires from the vehicle and deflate to half the normal air pressure during prolonged periods of nonuse
or storage.
5. Do not move a car that is in storage with these tires, as the tires may crack.
For more information, please contact Toyo Tire U.S.A. Corp’s. Consumer Relations Department at
(800) 442-8696.
Toyo Tire U.S.A. Corp.
6261 Katella Ave, Suite 2B
Cypress, CA 90630
www.toyo.com
11/07 Item # 0180253
So needless to say, I'm sure the big end, and overall will pick up some power leaning it out a little. My main concern is keeping the motor happy, and I don't want to hurt it by it leaning out and scorching a piston. So even though I was seeing really rich conditions, the dyno's wideband in the tailpipe was reading 0.4-0.6 leaner than me, so I left it be. I also got that weird 0.7 degrees of knock which might have been just a harmonic thing, but I didn't want issues.
Best of all, no black or white puffs of smoke on the dyno. Nothing hurt, motor seems really tight and strong and doesn't burn oil at all. I run 20w50 CAM2 BlueBlood oil and after 6-months and 980 miles, my dipstick was still in the middle of the fill mark, and my catchcan has very little fluid at all in it. I'll take a 740/688 happy healthy motor anyday over a wrung out, on the edge, 8xx motor.
Timing might get bumped to 17 degrees after I get the fueling squared away, but that won't be till the spring.
11-25-2013, 03:41 PM
#72
Yeah, E85 isn't close at all, so I'm staying 93 with meth/water injection.
I do need to pull out fuel, and actually already did it and flashed it in, but I'm not sure when I'll be able to do some datalogging as today's high is only supposed to be 31 degrees, and Toyo R888s don't like cold temps, they actually come with a warning sheet saying not to run them in sub 32 degree temps.
QUOTE:
Consumer Advisory
TSD-07-001 November 15, 2007
Recommendations on the
Proper Use, Handling, and Storage of Toyo Tires
This advisory applies only to the following products:
All Proxes® R1R™
All Proxes R888™
All Proxes RA1™
This advisory addresses the proper storage of these tires in colder climates. As seen in the picture below, tires stored
and operated at sub-freezing temperatures, i.e., at or below 32°F (0°C), will lose rubber compound flexibility and may
experience cracking when operated under such conditions.
Tread cracking due to low temperatures
WARNING!
The rubber compounds used in these tires have unique properties that, when compared to other tires, can cause them
to lose some of their flexibility when stored and operated at sub-freezing temperatures. This loss in flexibility can lead to
potential cracking and other damage to the tire.
TO MINIMIZETHE CHANCES OFTHIS HAPPENING, CONSUMERS AND INSTALLERS ARE ADVISED TO FOLLOW
THESE INSTRUCTIONS DURING SUB-FREEZING CONDITIONS:
1. Do not operate the car with these tires, as the tires may suddenly fail.
2. Always store these tires indoors at temperatures above 32°F (0°C).
3. Before mounting or dismounting, store these tires for at least 24 hours in a temperaturecontrolled environment
of 68°F (20°C) or warmer.
4. Remove these tires from the vehicle and deflate to half the normal air pressure during prolonged periods of nonuse
or storage.
5. Do not move a car that is in storage with these tires, as the tires may crack.
For more information, please contact Toyo Tire U.S.A. Corp’s. Consumer Relations Department at
(800) 442-8696.
Toyo Tire U.S.A. Corp.
6261 Katella Ave, Suite 2B
Cypress, CA 90630
www.toyo.com
11/07 Item # 0180253
So needless to say, I'm sure the big end, and overall will pick up some power leaning it out a little. My main concern is keeping the motor happy, and I don't want to hurt it by it leaning out and scorching a piston. So even though I was seeing really rich conditions, the dyno's wideband in the tailpipe was reading 0.4-0.6 leaner than me, so I left it be. I also got that weird 0.7 degrees of knock which might have been just a harmonic thing, but I didn't want issues.
Best of all, no black or white puffs of smoke on the dyno. Nothing hurt, motor seems really tight and strong and doesn't burn oil at all. I run 20w50 CAM2 BlueBlood oil and after 6-months and 980 miles, my dipstick was still in the middle of the fill mark, and my catchcan has very little fluid at all in it. I'll take a 740/688 happy healthy motor anyday over a wrung out, on the edge, 8xx motor.
Timing might get bumped to 17 degrees after I get the fueling squared away, but that won't be till the spring.
I do need to pull out fuel, and actually already did it and flashed it in, but I'm not sure when I'll be able to do some datalogging as today's high is only supposed to be 31 degrees, and Toyo R888s don't like cold temps, they actually come with a warning sheet saying not to run them in sub 32 degree temps.
QUOTE:
Consumer Advisory
TSD-07-001 November 15, 2007
Recommendations on the
Proper Use, Handling, and Storage of Toyo Tires
This advisory applies only to the following products:
All Proxes® R1R™
All Proxes R888™
All Proxes RA1™
This advisory addresses the proper storage of these tires in colder climates. As seen in the picture below, tires stored
and operated at sub-freezing temperatures, i.e., at or below 32°F (0°C), will lose rubber compound flexibility and may
experience cracking when operated under such conditions.
Tread cracking due to low temperatures
WARNING!
The rubber compounds used in these tires have unique properties that, when compared to other tires, can cause them
to lose some of their flexibility when stored and operated at sub-freezing temperatures. This loss in flexibility can lead to
potential cracking and other damage to the tire.
TO MINIMIZETHE CHANCES OFTHIS HAPPENING, CONSUMERS AND INSTALLERS ARE ADVISED TO FOLLOW
THESE INSTRUCTIONS DURING SUB-FREEZING CONDITIONS:
1. Do not operate the car with these tires, as the tires may suddenly fail.
2. Always store these tires indoors at temperatures above 32°F (0°C).
3. Before mounting or dismounting, store these tires for at least 24 hours in a temperaturecontrolled environment
of 68°F (20°C) or warmer.
4. Remove these tires from the vehicle and deflate to half the normal air pressure during prolonged periods of nonuse
or storage.
5. Do not move a car that is in storage with these tires, as the tires may crack.
For more information, please contact Toyo Tire U.S.A. Corp’s. Consumer Relations Department at
(800) 442-8696.
Toyo Tire U.S.A. Corp.
6261 Katella Ave, Suite 2B
Cypress, CA 90630
www.toyo.com
11/07 Item # 0180253
So needless to say, I'm sure the big end, and overall will pick up some power leaning it out a little. My main concern is keeping the motor happy, and I don't want to hurt it by it leaning out and scorching a piston. So even though I was seeing really rich conditions, the dyno's wideband in the tailpipe was reading 0.4-0.6 leaner than me, so I left it be. I also got that weird 0.7 degrees of knock which might have been just a harmonic thing, but I didn't want issues.
Best of all, no black or white puffs of smoke on the dyno. Nothing hurt, motor seems really tight and strong and doesn't burn oil at all. I run 20w50 CAM2 BlueBlood oil and after 6-months and 980 miles, my dipstick was still in the middle of the fill mark, and my catchcan has very little fluid at all in it. I'll take a 740/688 happy healthy motor anyday over a wrung out, on the edge, 8xx motor.
Timing might get bumped to 17 degrees after I get the fueling squared away, but that won't be till the spring.
Hoosier ftw 
11-26-2013, 12:35 AM
#75
From what I've read, I think it has to do with the way HPtuners logs the extra inputs at a higher rate than the other parameters, and as such, you get a lot of flutter in the readings. Look at the wideband and the fuel pressure and you'll see that there's quite a bit of noise in both. It's like putting the smoothing factor at zero for the dyno, you get noise. It probably doesn't help either that the fuel pressure sensor is right at the back of the rail, right after the #8 injctor at the end of the line. So no doubt pressure is dropping a little, but the sensor is picking up the worst case scenario.
11-26-2013, 06:52 AM
#76
Fortunately, with the ID1000s, I was only at mid 80s IDC at stock rail pressure, so that's a plus.
11-26-2013, 02:12 PM
#78
TECH Resident
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Awesome numbers!! bet the car is insane on the street.
for the Aux input and the logging with HPTuners... I'm soon to be testing getting a good ground with the system by bonding all grounds...hopefully that gets rid of some of the issues I have.
for the Aux input and the logging with HPTuners... I'm soon to be testing getting a good ground with the system by bonding all grounds...hopefully that gets rid of some of the issues I have.
11-27-2013, 08:59 AM
#80
I don't know if it's a grounding issue as much as it's a case of HPtuners polls the aux inputs at a higher frequency or different frequency than the other data channels.
I'm doing some reading to find out how to smooth out those data channels.