607motorsports

iTrader: (6)

I could swap to a t6 flange but going twin scroll isn't easily doable with the PTK hotside. It would be easier to build a new/different hotside and crossover but not really something I want to get into this winter.

Forcefed86

iTrader: (4)

Show me one... like I said above, I believe you. I've just never seen one. And a slightly lighter or heavier blade doesn't have near the effect you'd think. It sure as hell won't give you a 700rpm spool improvement.

This is garrets testing of a cast VS a billet wheel of the same dimensions. The billet wheel was heavier, the cast lighter. Yes the cast wheel did outperform it. But so marginally you would never notice it in a real world application. Just like the mentioned smaller hubs of PTE won't be able to shave off enough weight to make a seat of the pants difference. It's all media hype BS put out there to sell turbos IMHO.

Camaro9969

iTrader: (12)

Could post logs to prove it but I really dont need to go that far. Also Bill@Bullseye said if I went with his batmowheel that I could get even faster spool times over the billet and cast.

Camaro9969

iTrader: (12)

Never heard of the ptk so im not sure what ir looks like but you could prob just redo the small portion of it if your able to do some fab work. Its worth it in the end

607motorsports

iTrader: (6)

Not mine but this is the setup. Hard to see but the passenger side crossover wraps around the back of the motor. I guess it sorta does already have a twin scoll feel too it...

Forcefed86

iTrader: (4)

You won't prove anything. Your logs won't show anything useful. You aren't running wheels with the same dimensions. There is a compressor map from Garrett above with a billet and a cast wheel of the same dimensions. THEY PERFORM ALMOST EXACTLY THE SAME! Your comparing apples to oranges. Just like your Twin scroll setup isn't a true twin scroll setup.

You can't just run the left side exh. manifold to one side of the scroll and the right side manifold to the other. For a proper twin scroll system to work you need to divide the exhaust pulses correctly. You'd need 1764 going into one side and 3258 going into the other. Otherwise you defeat the whole purpose.

it!

Camaro9969

iTrader: (12)

Its also been proven that this system works makes more power and faster spool than a complete open scroll
There are many write ups on this on yb and many other forums I suggest you try it for yourself instead of using Google.

Anyways this is off topic of what advice he was looking for start another thread billet vs cast if you would like

stock48

iTrader: (17)

Thanks. Right at 23 psi in 3300' summer DA. Thing is making a lot more power now that air is cooled off but car is banned from track, and Im a little afraid of the bottom end holding anymore.

Thanks. It's the older V2 billet 76/92 thru forced inductions. Turbine is same 92/81 they have been using for awhile now. 1.25 AR with some porting.

Forcefed86

iTrader: (4)

It's been done already many times. Billet is a material, the fact that it's billet means nothing performance wise.

What ever you need to tell yourself to sleep at night man. Thats not a "twin scroll" setup and if your still running the 2.5" pipes they are way over sized. A 2.125" to 2.5 open collector will spool better than a 2.5" divided setup at your power levels. Thats been done too.

Camaro9969

iTrader: (12)

This isnt a thread on what to do with my set up as for spool times its almost instant in fact spools prob faster than most of the s480's that i have seen. If we saw a reason to go with a smaller dia we would but for now its working perfect

Forcefed86

iTrader: (4)

I’m not telling you or anyone how to build their setups. Your build is badass! I followed your whole 50+ page thread on it.

All I did was point out false information given to people that don’t know any better.

Don’t tell someone a billet wheel performs better than a cast wheel it doesn't.
Don’t claim how well your twin scroll setup works, when you don’t have a twin scroll setup.
Don’t claim your system will out spool another with no data to back it up.

These statements confuse people trying to learn. 90% of the turbo crowd doesn’t understand how a twin scroll setup works and thinks billet turbos massively outspool cast units because they are lighter weight. Let’s get past the “Monkey-see” “Monkey-do” BS and explain why things work. Then let people decide for themselves. We all gain from it.

Camaro9969

iTrader: (12)

Well all of those statements your saying are all false for me anyways...first i have done back to back with cast and my BULLSEYE Billet wheel and there were gains. Not to mention Promises of gains from Bill@Bullseye lol All you have to do is look at a log to see this. And using the divided housing the way that I have has worked better than others that use just the open. Also have data for that to back up my statement But i'm just spinning my wheels here and all i will say is try some of these things yourself just like i have to see and maybe it will help out your set up a little maybe you will see a loss. Ive read countless things and the only way to really see for yourself is just doing it Find out what works and go with it problem solved. One thing i do agree with is the confusion with the Turbo crowd what works and what doesn't. Just was stating what Has worked for me.

Side note....Have you tried a billet wheel just for the hell of it? lol

Forcefed86

iTrader: (4)

:sigh: I’ll agree to disagree.

What cast wheel? What bullseye billet wheel? Were they the same dimensions? I can tell you they weren’t without waiting for your answer. If you understand the physics behind the wheels and what makes them perform better or worse you would agree. Yes, the bullseye design may have performed better, the fact that it’s billet means nothing.

I also have direct experience with the 60mm bullseye billet batmowheel drop in replacement for the HX40. Dyno runs were made back to back with nothing but a wheel swap @ 30psi. The cast 60mm wheel made more power overall, the batmowheel made a tiny but more power in the midrange. Difference in spool times were negligible. As you can see even the “drop-in” replacements are a totally different design. It’s totally different dimensions! I also tested the 60mm 6 blade billet wheel from Holset VS the Cast wheel. There was no notable difference in performance! I'm telling you a cast replica of the batmowheel would perform the same (if not marginally better) as a billet wheel.






As far as the divided housing goes you can’t compare someone else’s setup to yours. You would have to compare a properly sized hotside non-divided, VS your divided setup. If you were local I'd put money on a 1.125" non divided hotside out spooling your current one. Hell I'd help you build it.

Sarg

iTrader: (6)

In my talks with a the head of design for full race who is very good friends with one of the turbo engineers from BW, even running the turbo divided with one bank of cylinders to each side will see better spool time and increased midrange performance over an open housing. I have had people tell me that there is no way my s480 spools as fast as it does and have nothing to say when I show them the logs. There is a benefit to running it in this manner. The downside to this is it effectively reduces the ar if the housing and may not make quite as much up top.

coltboostin

If facts (size differences and airflow ratings of the PTE62 vs 35r) and observed realities of trucks that came though my buddies shop are is a huge load of BS, then I guess I am the BS king! LOL

You keep driving home a point I don't think anyone is arguing?? The same wheel-cast and billet-will basically perform the same. DUH.

The fact is the billet wheels that are making more power on these cars are DIFFERENT (sometimes substantially) than their similar cast counterparts. The designs they are using in many instances you simply can not get away with in a weaker cast wheel without risking it coming apart any time you near max shaft RPM.

That would be a losing bet. Science again wins here (or maybe its more of my BS? )

Divided turbines work so well on V8s that BMW blew several million dollars trying to make it work on their new V8-let alone EVERY auto manufacturer with a turbo on an OE car is using divided set ups to gain spool-transient response-and efficiency.



http://www.autozine.org/technical_sc...duction_4.html

Lets forget that every Semi (hell, even every diesel passenger truck) for the last 20 years have had divided hot sides for the same reason. But hey-its probably all BS anyways

Sarg

iTrader: (6)

Think what he was saying is that it is not being run with true twinscroll as the cylinders are not paired. But even though the pairings are not perfect it is close enough to work imho.

Forcefed86

iTrader: (4)

I agree, you are the BS king.


I'm happy you understand. What is "DUH" for you seems to allude 90% of the "turbo guys" I speak with. Like I said, I'm putting the information out there for the people that don't know. IF what I said is a fact, then why are you commenting on it? That's the only point I argued the entire time. The way it was worded could lead someone not as wise as you to believe that billet turbos are better because of the material they are made of alone.

Show me one aftermarket wheel that has a design that could not be made in a cast process. When have you ever seen a cast wheel pull itself apart the hub in a drag race application? I've never seen or heard of it. Not that a casting couldnt be bad, but it's not common place. Sure in drag race applications turbos will fail in lots of ways, but it's not due to the wheels casting failing.

Your confused again.... I never debated a true twin scroll system won't outperform a non divided setup. If you don't have the cylinders paired properly into each side of the scroll your defeating the purpose of a twin scroll system. The above 2 members I'm chatting with do not have the cylinder paired properly.

Camaro9969

iTrader: (12)

YET it has made a difference on OUR set ups lol I know what your saying i've seen it a million times on dsms i know what the idea around it is but its almost impossible to pair cylinders that way and you may not believe it but it just works. i suggest you just try it out make a merge and see what it does you will be surprised...There are many people who have built set ups like this with great results over an open housing.

Sarg

iTrader: (6)

I can only imagine how fast I would spool with properly sized, non-leaking thick wall divided set up, lol. It may not be "true twinscroll". But according to the guys who design the bw turbos it still helps a good bit.

Camaro9969

iTrader: (12)

Ya when i talked with Bill at Bullseye he told me that using it the way i did that i would see better results than open and he was right. As for the dia i have a 2.5 schedule 10ss which is actually over 2.5 id closer to 2.65 but it works awesome i would consider going to a smaller dia but i have no reason to do so plus this kit will be good to 2000hp if i want it to be which at the rate i've been going will be next year.