Benefits of E85 + meth?
01-28-2014, 08:17 AM
#1
Benefits of E85 + meth? E85 how I understand it is an outstanding fuel that is probably the best setup for keeping things safe under boost.
I believe meth injection is a great way also to keep things away from detonation but I have really only heard of guys using it on pump gas.
My question is; is there any added benefit to running meth injection with E85?
To me, it would seem the E85 is already giving you all the benefits possible and that adding meth injection won't do anything. This was argued in another thread by someone claiming cooler IAT's by adding meth injection to an E85 setup. However, it would seem hard to define since meth injection is usually sprayed before the IAT sensor and would obviously cool things, but in the combustion chamber, E85 is already taking full effect.
I would love to see any technical tuning data anyone has to see if there are indeed any actual benefits to running meth injection on an E85 setup.
I believe meth injection is a great way also to keep things away from detonation but I have really only heard of guys using it on pump gas.
My question is; is there any added benefit to running meth injection with E85?
To me, it would seem the E85 is already giving you all the benefits possible and that adding meth injection won't do anything. This was argued in another thread by someone claiming cooler IAT's by adding meth injection to an E85 setup. However, it would seem hard to define since meth injection is usually sprayed before the IAT sensor and would obviously cool things, but in the combustion chamber, E85 is already taking full effect.
I would love to see any technical tuning data anyone has to see if there are indeed any actual benefits to running meth injection on an E85 setup.
01-28-2014, 02:09 PM
#4
Getting IATs down helps (in my experience) a lot. Simple as that. I had a non intercooled meth injection setup, 190* IATs through the traps, it trapped 131. Put a bigger turbine housing on (.81 to .96), put shorter gears out back (3.08 to 3.27), and put an A2W on (adding 100lbs). Got the IATs down about 100* the entire duration of the pass, and it traps 139. I took the meth off too. I'm contemplating putting another kit together just to see what it picks up.
Setup is:
3800lb crown vic
5.3
TH400
E85
PT7675
Setup is:
3800lb crown vic
5.3
TH400
E85
PT7675
01-28-2014, 06:58 PM
#6
You'll never get the answer you're looking for, IMO.
Reason being, until someone finds a way to add an IAT sensor in the intake tract AFTER the injector, its all speculation.
About the only way I see you could get an idea would be to take your setup to the track or a dyno and some make passes logging IAT and watching the MPH (or HP if you're on the dyno)
Then put the meth on it, retune it (if needed, which it will and watch the MPH or HP if you're on the dyno.
If the numbers go up than you know the motor is making more power, which is a benefit, IMO.
Reason being, until someone finds a way to add an IAT sensor in the intake tract AFTER the injector, its all speculation.
About the only way I see you could get an idea would be to take your setup to the track or a dyno and some make passes logging IAT and watching the MPH (or HP if you're on the dyno)
Then put the meth on it, retune it (if needed, which it will and watch the MPH or HP if you're on the dyno.
If the numbers go up than you know the motor is making more power, which is a benefit, IMO.
01-28-2014, 08:02 PM
#7
I know for a fact I picked up power since my tune was pulling 4* of timing for IAT's in the 180's at the top of 4th gear. Added meth and my IAT's went down to the 40's at the top of 4th gear. So instead of 11* with pulled timing I did 15* of timing. Then I bumped it up some more to 18*. That's when I made 754rwhp at 11.5psi. I've since switched back to 91 octane, so the meth is even more important for me. I have a second nozzle on the way. So I will have a 15gph and a 10gph nozzle. I tried doing a 80/20 mix of meth/water today with my single 15gph nozzle and it was actually a little more prone to knock than running 100% meth. I was getting around .6-1.0* of knock at peak torque and a couple other little blips around 6000-6300.
Trending Topics
01-28-2014, 08:04 PM
#8
I realize some guys will run a tuneup that isn't pulling timing for hot IAT's like I did, but I'm not comfortable relying on magical E85 to cool anything down in the short distance between the injector and the combustion chamber. Plus I'm on the stock bottom end. Better to be safe.
01-29-2014, 02:57 AM
#11
Launching!
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 281
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have wondered the same thing. I remember reading somewhere (could have been on here) about water build up when using both together, but I could getting confused.
The worst case would be that using both would result in extra octane and keep things safer?
The worst case would be that using both would result in extra octane and keep things safer?
01-29-2014, 09:59 AM
#12
All depends on your iats really, but it's hard to find any back to back data, I'll have some this year, plan on running with a2w with ice in it then without ice, only water. Same timing/fuel tuneup to see if the lower iats truly give a gain in mph or not.
That being said, 99% of the time my car will have water only in the a2w tank and we will 2 injectors spraying e98 pre injected to cool iats for the street/track since I hate packing ice most of the time.
That being said, 99% of the time my car will have water only in the a2w tank and we will 2 injectors spraying e98 pre injected to cool iats for the street/track since I hate packing ice most of the time.
01-29-2014, 10:58 AM
#13
It's really not that hard to pack ice. Lol. And I picked up about 9-10% power getting the iats down 100*. It'll be interesting to see if you have similar results with a bigger HP setup.
01-29-2014, 11:37 AM
#14
IMO for the boost levels most are running, E85 alone is enough to keep out of detonation. Water injection would lower the EGT's more than methanol/ethanol. It also helps with detonation, won't mess with AFR's, and keeps everything nice and clean in the CC.
Though I guess this would assume you had to choose either or and not both. If you only are using one nozzle it will work best the closer you get it to the TB. With as cheap as nozzles are it would be most beneficial to spray a small amount all along the way using several tiny nozzles to help cool the charge. Small enough that the fluid flashes before it gets to the throttle body. Then spray the majority you want to make to the CC at the Throttle body. (Or closer)
Last edited by Forcefed86; 01-29-2014 at 12:48 PM.
01-29-2014, 08:59 PM
#15
Forcefed86 makes some great points. Judging this question by way of IATs are pointless as they are obviously colder with the meth spraying on them.
ToolateVTEC also makes a good point that because of this it will be hard to get an answer.
I thought it was best to post this in the FI section, but really I would like to get some inputs from tuners that have direct experience with tuning with the variables.
ToolateVTEC also makes a good point that because of this it will be hard to get an answer.
I thought it was best to post this in the FI section, but really I would like to get some inputs from tuners that have direct experience with tuning with the variables.
01-29-2014, 09:58 PM
#17
Anytime you can lower your inlet air temp your going to make more power. That's why I told someone in this thread a long time ago that it would help them and they disagreed with me and told me that E85 was enough or better I cant remember.
Back almost 20 years ago I tried meth with C16 and still picked up HP. Every engine is different and cylinder heads and combustion chambers all come into play as far as boost and timing but even taking all that stuff out of it the lower IATs are going to help.
I used to use Meth and Xylene together and it worked great for a pump gas mix that was undetectable. This was long before E85 though.
Back almost 20 years ago I tried meth with C16 and still picked up HP. Every engine is different and cylinder heads and combustion chambers all come into play as far as boost and timing but even taking all that stuff out of it the lower IATs are going to help.
I used to use Meth and Xylene together and it worked great for a pump gas mix that was undetectable. This was long before E85 though.
01-29-2014, 10:24 PM
#18
The problem with all that is your actual air inlet temps were not in the 40's. Once an IAT sensor is saturated with alcohol and the alcohol evaporates off the sensor you get a false cool reading. Allowing the ECU to add timing based on this false reading can lead to trouble.
During a pull my IAT drops to the teens and climbs up to the 40's at the top of 4th gear.
Though I guess this would assume you had to choose either or and not both. If you only are using one nozzle it will work best the closer you get it to the TB. With as cheap as nozzles are it would be most beneficial to spray a small amount all along the way using several tiny nozzles to help cool the charge. Small enough that the fluid flashes before it gets to the throttle body. Then spray the majority you want to make to the CC at the Throttle body. (Or closer)
During a pull my IAT drops to the teens and climbs up to the 40's at the top of 4th gear.
Though I guess this would assume you had to choose either or and not both. If you only are using one nozzle it will work best the closer you get it to the TB. With as cheap as nozzles are it would be most beneficial to spray a small amount all along the way using several tiny nozzles to help cool the charge. Small enough that the fluid flashes before it gets to the throttle body. Then spray the majority you want to make to the CC at the Throttle body. (Or closer)
01-30-2014, 03:56 AM
#19
Launching!
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 281
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I run the nozzle about 3" in front of my throttlebody. I'm adding another nozzle as well. So I will have a 15gph and a 10gph nozzle. I know ECS has actually done direct port meth kits that put a nozzle in each runner. My buddy is making 1080rwhp on 91 octane with a 15 and 10 nozzle and 100% meth. 427 LSX YSi setup. So I don't think I will need anything as fancy as a direct port meth kit. I will have a tuneup for E85, but my daily and road trip fuel will be 91 octane. I did think about adding an EGT probe in each header to see how hot each bank is running.