Methanol Injection questions....
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TECH Enthusiast
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From: Gold Country California
Methanol Injection questions.... I have become a believer in the technology and the advantages using meth for boosted apps. Going to design and build my own setup.
Question #1: Is direct port (per intake manifold runner) injection the way to go? Is it a significant advantage? OR..... What is the most efficient setup pretending cost is not an issue? Not interested in referencing a name brand kit, that answers none of my questions. There just does not seem all that much to it and Im sure I can (possibly) build it.
Question #2: If direct port is superior, What size nozzles for a stock bore /stroke LS1 347, twin TO4S (60-1)? 96# fuel injectors (if that matters). Boost PSI to be determined.
Question #3: Are meth injection nozzles complex at all? Moving internal parts? I'm not discounting engineering and development. Seems that they are no more than a cylinder with a small hole discharge.
Question #4: Assuming question 3 is that simple, what size discharge hole would be required to question 2's answer?
Question #5: What is the pump requirement (volume output/pressure)?
Need to be educated on these questions.
Thanks, Lasershop
Question #1: Is direct port (per intake manifold runner) injection the way to go? Is it a significant advantage? OR..... What is the most efficient setup pretending cost is not an issue? Not interested in referencing a name brand kit, that answers none of my questions. There just does not seem all that much to it and Im sure I can (possibly) build it.
Question #2: If direct port is superior, What size nozzles for a stock bore /stroke LS1 347, twin TO4S (60-1)? 96# fuel injectors (if that matters). Boost PSI to be determined.
Question #3: Are meth injection nozzles complex at all? Moving internal parts? I'm not discounting engineering and development. Seems that they are no more than a cylinder with a small hole discharge.
Question #4: Assuming question 3 is that simple, what size discharge hole would be required to question 2's answer?
Question #5: What is the pump requirement (volume output/pressure)?
Need to be educated on these questions.
Thanks, Lasershop
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 13,616
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From: Norn Iron
Port injection will ensure all cylinders get equal amounts. Which when most intake manifolds these days are not designed for wet flow, can be important.
So whether it is a real benefit or not will depend on other factors. Largely intake design, and how much you're actually spraying in the first place
Nozzle size is usually directly related to power...or overall fuel flow. This will vary whether water/meth mixes are used, or straight meth
With straight meth you can easily go larger as actual metering of flow isnt that important as long as it is consistent.
Most nozzles are pretty simple. There are different sizes available, but of course flow will be different at different pressures. So that will depend on pump used as well as boost pressure.
Pumps generally operate at 100psi and upwards. Again pump selection will depend on boost used and flow required. But higher pressures are desirable as it usually produces a finer spray mist than lower pressures.
The actual hardware is very simple. Pump, nozzles and lines. Where the real power lies is with the control/metering of the injected liquid.
If you're using a water/meth mix, this can be very important. If just 100% meth, then it's fairly idiot proof and you can almost dump in as much as you like and it will have no real negative effects so control options can be fairly simple, which is basically what most "progressive" controllers are.
lots of good info here http://www.aquamist.co.uk/vbulletin/
So whether it is a real benefit or not will depend on other factors. Largely intake design, and how much you're actually spraying in the first place
Nozzle size is usually directly related to power...or overall fuel flow. This will vary whether water/meth mixes are used, or straight meth
With straight meth you can easily go larger as actual metering of flow isnt that important as long as it is consistent.
Most nozzles are pretty simple. There are different sizes available, but of course flow will be different at different pressures. So that will depend on pump used as well as boost pressure.
Pumps generally operate at 100psi and upwards. Again pump selection will depend on boost used and flow required. But higher pressures are desirable as it usually produces a finer spray mist than lower pressures.
The actual hardware is very simple. Pump, nozzles and lines. Where the real power lies is with the control/metering of the injected liquid.
If you're using a water/meth mix, this can be very important. If just 100% meth, then it's fairly idiot proof and you can almost dump in as much as you like and it will have no real negative effects so control options can be fairly simple, which is basically what most "progressive" controllers are.
lots of good info here http://www.aquamist.co.uk/vbulletin/
TECH Apprentice
Joined: Dec 2004
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what are you going to use to control it?
without a controller just dumping alchy in won't be conducive to tuning
I think you are trying to reinvent the wheel unless you are contemplating and aftermarket ECM and some way to control the flow other than the jetting
not saying it can't work, but the technical advantages of progressive controllers are worth the price of admission.
the Alchy Control system from Julio isn't all that expensive and way better than "rekitting" and engine due to a problem with tuning.
also,
not that many folks are running direct injection (one nozzle per port) but I believe there are some big advantages as Stevieturbo mentioned
on a really high HP car with the alchy flowing there was a 300 degree difference in the exhaust gas temps from the best to the worst port indicating an aclhy distribution problem essentially the boost "carried" the alchy to the rear cylinders leaving the fronts too lean
if you have an alchy dependent tune, that could be a big problem
the nozzles are like the old mechanical fuel injection and just direct and control the flow
but shooting large volumes of alchy under high boost in the "up pipe" in front of the throttle body for sure can lead to some distribution problems.
but you can't tell unless you are measuring the EGT variance.
I'm inpressed by the new setup ECS did for Lee. Even with the direct port there was still a variance of 100 deg (which surprised me) due to variation in air flow. but at least you can stagger jet and compensate with the direct port.
without a controller just dumping alchy in won't be conducive to tuning
I think you are trying to reinvent the wheel unless you are contemplating and aftermarket ECM and some way to control the flow other than the jetting
not saying it can't work, but the technical advantages of progressive controllers are worth the price of admission.
the Alchy Control system from Julio isn't all that expensive and way better than "rekitting" and engine due to a problem with tuning.
also,
not that many folks are running direct injection (one nozzle per port) but I believe there are some big advantages as Stevieturbo mentioned
on a really high HP car with the alchy flowing there was a 300 degree difference in the exhaust gas temps from the best to the worst port indicating an aclhy distribution problem essentially the boost "carried" the alchy to the rear cylinders leaving the fronts too lean
if you have an alchy dependent tune, that could be a big problem
the nozzles are like the old mechanical fuel injection and just direct and control the flow
but shooting large volumes of alchy under high boost in the "up pipe" in front of the throttle body for sure can lead to some distribution problems.
but you can't tell unless you are measuring the EGT variance.
I'm inpressed by the new setup ECS did for Lee. Even with the direct port there was still a variance of 100 deg (which surprised me) due to variation in air flow. but at least you can stagger jet and compensate with the direct port.
Thread Starter
TECH Enthusiast
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From: Gold Country California
Leaning toward a set boost control. Not fully progressive. Not trying to re-invent anything. I think I can save $700 bucks. I will absorb all of the input I can get. This would be a one off setup. Im no stranger to that. Another question is what would be the ideal spray pattern?
A few of my questions are still a bit grey so feel free to elaborate as much as possible.
Thanks!
A few of my questions are still a bit grey so feel free to elaborate as much as possible.
Thanks!
9 Second Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 13,616
Likes: 185
From: Norn Iron
Just search, there is no lack of information out there.
Nozzles must ( well ideally will ) produce a very fine mist.
Using boost only as a parameter is fairly crude if turbocharged or a PD blower. Works better with a centri because boost pressure is not steady.
Ideally you want to be able to control flow relative to engine load.
As for saving money. Pumps are cheap, nozzles are cheap, controllers relatively inexpensive. Lines can be expensive or cheap.
So not really sure what you're trying to re-invent in order to save money that will actually make a viable saving over the base essentials anyway
Nozzles must ( well ideally will ) produce a very fine mist.
Using boost only as a parameter is fairly crude if turbocharged or a PD blower. Works better with a centri because boost pressure is not steady.
Ideally you want to be able to control flow relative to engine load.
As for saving money. Pumps are cheap, nozzles are cheap, controllers relatively inexpensive. Lines can be expensive or cheap.
So not really sure what you're trying to re-invent in order to save money that will actually make a viable saving over the base essentials anyway
Some thots, etc.
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/thr...he-box.404381/
Also, some other threads on the topic.
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/thr...he-box.404381/
Also, some other threads on the topic.
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Mar 2011
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From: Statesville, NC
Direct port meth would be awesome. I use twin 10gph nozzles on mine now in the cold pipe so and equal amount would be close to 2gph nozzle per cylinder or a little bigger. I think a custom setup like this would be awesome for utilizing pump gas/meth combos. Drill and tap something like a victor jr or something for budget. Think my AIS kit uses a 200psi pump. I guess most any meth kit could be converted to a direct port kit. Just buy more line and nozzles. Id be interested to see what bling you come up with on this.
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Thread Starter
TECH Enthusiast
iTrader: (2)
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 572
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From: Gold Country California
Just search, there is no lack of information out there.
Nozzles must ( well ideally will ) produce a very fine mist.
Using boost only as a parameter is fairly crude if turbocharged or a PD blower. Works better with a centri because boost pressure is not steady.
Ideally you want to be able to control flow relative to engine load.
As for saving money. Pumps are cheap, nozzles are cheap, controllers relatively inexpensive. Lines can be expensive or cheap.
So not really sure what you're trying to re-invent in order to save money that will actually make a viable saving over the base essentials anyway
Nozzles must ( well ideally will ) produce a very fine mist.
Using boost only as a parameter is fairly crude if turbocharged or a PD blower. Works better with a centri because boost pressure is not steady.
Ideally you want to be able to control flow relative to engine load.
As for saving money. Pumps are cheap, nozzles are cheap, controllers relatively inexpensive. Lines can be expensive or cheap.
So not really sure what you're trying to re-invent in order to save money that will actually make a viable saving over the base essentials anyway
$20 to $40 per nozzle X8 is not that cheap.. Its not all about money. I like to make things.
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Verdad Gallardo 9 Second Club
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From: Norn Iron
Different companies use different designs of nozzle. And perhaps to a degree, design depends on pressures being used.
Ive seen people use atomising nozzles used in the agri-world for a low pressure spray. ( ie pre compressor sprays, or intercooler sprays )
Whereas other nozzles are designed to produce a fine mist with much higher pressures...ie 100-200psi when used with water injection.
Some may appear to have just a spray nozzle, but some also have a little piece inside to help create a fan spray
Really to find out, you'd maybe end up buying some in order to replicate them. And at that stage, be as easy just to buy what you need in the first place.
Years ago I recall some people using a nozzle from a heating oil burner which was supposed to create a fine spray.
