water/meth injection
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
From: Perth Australia
water/meth injection Hi I have installed an aem progressive Water meth kit onto my single turbo 408 and am just curious on a couple of things before I start playing too much. I already have an intercooler and a full tune done prior to fitting the meth injection and when I spray the a/f is going to richen things up for me aswell as cool the intake temps .
What is the general rule with taking advantage of this, have guys just screwed a bit more boost into it with the eboost and bring the a/f back to where it was or am I going to have to pay for the dyno time and tuning.
What is the general rule with taking advantage of this, have guys just screwed a bit more boost into it with the eboost and bring the a/f back to where it was or am I going to have to pay for the dyno time and tuning.
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,916
Likes: 8
From: Statesville, NC
I was tuned on 8psi and pump gas. I added twin 10gph meth nozzles and the AIS kit. Set it to come on at 5 psi spraying wide open 100% Methanol. I now am on 21psi and this is a stock ls1 with a cam. My afrs stay around 10.8 with the meth all the way up the rpm range. I haven't been retuned or anything. Made 775 on 16psi. But street I run 21psi but just try to not make to long of a hit at that level. Estimated around 900rwhp. Id say meth is really helping keep detonation out since im using pump gas. Im sure I could gain from being retuned on the meth but I don't see the need. Car has far surpassed anything I could have imagined for a stock engine.
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
From: Perth Australia
Not really looking for max effort at the moment, My current tune is set up to pull quite a bit of timing when iats get high like at the end of a 1/4 mile track run, Just interested in adding a little more boost and hoping the 50/50 mix will keep iats from rising like they had so I don't lose power.
Hi I have installed an aem progressive Water meth kit onto my single turbo 408 and am just curious on a couple of things before I start playing too much. I already have an intercooler and a full tune done prior to fitting the meth injection and when I spray the a/f is going to richen things up for me aswell as cool the intake temps .
What is the general rule with taking advantage of this, have guys just screwed a bit more boost into it with the eboost and bring the a/f back to where it was or am I going to have to pay for the dyno time and tuning.
What is the general rule with taking advantage of this, have guys just screwed a bit more boost into it with the eboost and bring the a/f back to where it was or am I going to have to pay for the dyno time and tuning.
You don’t give enough information for someone to give you educated suggestions.
What kind of base fuel are you running?
How much 50/50 mix are you spraying?
Current Boost level?
Desired boost level?
Location of IAT sensor VS meth nozzle?
What IAT temps are you seeing without meth?
IAT With meth?
How much timing are you pulling/adding and at what temperature.
Current AFR and timing?
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
From: Perth Australia
I was only looking for general things initially, forged 408 single gt4708, generic 300x600x4 intercooler. I know the turbo is too small, I am just holding off on the turbo swap till mid year.
turbo 400 3000 stall,
9" with 3.25 ratio. 26" mt drag radials
AEM progressive kit with 1 nozzle, 550cc/min 50/50 meth but currently set up with water only as its only just been fitted. On at 8psi ramped full at max boost. Turbo hits max boost at 3000rpm.
Track times 10.3@ 132 so far. heap of timing pulled. Runs 15deg at max torque on dyno and creeps back up to redline. On that run iats hit 160f and had 7deg timing for back portion of track. I just want to keep all my timing and power rather than push things further. I have a better turbo for later.
turbo 400 3000 stall,
9" with 3.25 ratio. 26" mt drag radials
AEM progressive kit with 1 nozzle, 550cc/min 50/50 meth but currently set up with water only as its only just been fitted. On at 8psi ramped full at max boost. Turbo hits max boost at 3000rpm.
Track times 10.3@ 132 so far. heap of timing pulled. Runs 15deg at max torque on dyno and creeps back up to redline. On that run iats hit 160f and had 7deg timing for back portion of track. I just want to keep all my timing and power rather than push things further. I have a better turbo for later.
Trending Topics
I was only looking for general things initially, forged 408 single gt4708, generic 300x600x4 intercooler. I know the turbo is too small, I am just holding off on the turbo swap till mid year.
turbo 400 3000 stall,
9" with 3.25 ratio. 26" mt drag radials
AEM progressive kit with 1 nozzle, 550cc/min 50/50 meth but currently set up with water only as its only just been fitted. On at 8psi ramped full at max boost. Turbo hits max boost at 3000rpm.
Track times 10.3@ 132 so far. heap of timing pulled. Runs 15deg at max torque on dyno and creeps back up to redline. On that run iats hit 160f and had 7deg timing for back portion of track. I just want to keep all my timing and power rather than push things further. I have a better turbo for later.
turbo 400 3000 stall,
9" with 3.25 ratio. 26" mt drag radials
AEM progressive kit with 1 nozzle, 550cc/min 50/50 meth but currently set up with water only as its only just been fitted. On at 8psi ramped full at max boost. Turbo hits max boost at 3000rpm.
Track times 10.3@ 132 so far. heap of timing pulled. Runs 15deg at max torque on dyno and creeps back up to redline. On that run iats hit 160f and had 7deg timing for back portion of track. I just want to keep all my timing and power rather than push things further. I have a better turbo for later.
Didnt say your current max boost. Or desired max boost.
meth nozzle location in relation to IAT sensor?
Current AFR?
Swear I'm not being a douche, I really will try to give you a detailed information once I get all your info.
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Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
From: Perth Australia
Currently at 15psi, running 98 premium pump fuel which I think is more like you guys 93 pump fuel. My meth nozzle is after the intercooler about 8" before the IAT and the IAT is about 8" before the throttle body. Gave it a shot of 50/50 at current boost with the smaller nozzle, starting at 8psi and full at 15. didn't really do much. Put the 550cc nozzle on and set it to come on at 4 psi and full by 10psi with same 15 psi boost and big improvement. Ambient temps of 90f approx and my IATs dropped to 74f from what I saw. My logs played up so I am unsure of A/F.Before my IATs were hitting 125 and climbing so big improvement so far.
Been playing with meth inj for 12+ years. This is all just my opinion based on my experiences with it.
1.) Your IAT readings are incorrect. The air flowing around the sensor is nowhere near as cool as the sensor is reading. With your IAT sensor so close to your nozzle the sensor itself is saturated with fluid. The alcohol evaporates off the sensor giving you a false (overly cool) reading. Your logged temperatures dropped dramatically because you switched to a 50/50 mix. Switch to 100% meth and it would drop even more at the same 550cc amount. Using the IAT’s false reading to control timing/fuel/etc is dangerous. Solution to this is to put the IAT sensor upstream of the nozzle. Then leave your IAT maps alone. If you really want to see the benefits of aux injection and alter the tune with these readings, datalog your exhaust gas temps.
2.) The greatest benefit of meth/water injection are its effects in the combustion chamber, not it’s ability to cool the air charge pre-CC. Because of this the majority of your alky should sprayed as close to the combustion chamber as possible. For most this is right at or behind the throttle body. The fact that it cools the air charge some is a secondary benefit. To take full advantage of aux injection, this should be accomplished with added tiny nozzles along the charge piping.(and pre-turbo if done properly.)
3.) Your not spraying much! Imo at 15lbs and 50/50 mix my weight (not volume) you should be spraying more like 1250cc+. The amount your spraying now isn’t going to affect your AFR’s much. I would shoot for 11.0-11.3 AFR while spraying 1250cc+ 50/50 mix. I think your progressive controller settings are fine.
4.) Lastly I wouldn't change a thing with your timing! Don’t add timing with the meth inj. Add boost instead. Can’t stress this enough! If you were running 15psi with no detonation pre-meth inj, you should easily be able to run 20psi (or more) with a 1250cc 50/50 mix. If it were me I’d try 12* timing at peak torque and slowly ramp it up to a 17* max by redline, 20lbs, and target 11.3AFR on the WB02.
5.) To see really big gains switching to 100% methanol is the only way to go. This will alter your AFR's alot and you'll be looking at spraying 2-3x as much fluid depending on the amount of boost you want to run.
1.) Your IAT readings are incorrect. The air flowing around the sensor is nowhere near as cool as the sensor is reading. With your IAT sensor so close to your nozzle the sensor itself is saturated with fluid. The alcohol evaporates off the sensor giving you a false (overly cool) reading. Your logged temperatures dropped dramatically because you switched to a 50/50 mix. Switch to 100% meth and it would drop even more at the same 550cc amount. Using the IAT’s false reading to control timing/fuel/etc is dangerous. Solution to this is to put the IAT sensor upstream of the nozzle. Then leave your IAT maps alone. If you really want to see the benefits of aux injection and alter the tune with these readings, datalog your exhaust gas temps.
2.) The greatest benefit of meth/water injection are its effects in the combustion chamber, not it’s ability to cool the air charge pre-CC. Because of this the majority of your alky should sprayed as close to the combustion chamber as possible. For most this is right at or behind the throttle body. The fact that it cools the air charge some is a secondary benefit. To take full advantage of aux injection, this should be accomplished with added tiny nozzles along the charge piping.(and pre-turbo if done properly.)
3.) Your not spraying much! Imo at 15lbs and 50/50 mix my weight (not volume) you should be spraying more like 1250cc+. The amount your spraying now isn’t going to affect your AFR’s much. I would shoot for 11.0-11.3 AFR while spraying 1250cc+ 50/50 mix. I think your progressive controller settings are fine.
4.) Lastly I wouldn't change a thing with your timing! Don’t add timing with the meth inj. Add boost instead. Can’t stress this enough! If you were running 15psi with no detonation pre-meth inj, you should easily be able to run 20psi (or more) with a 1250cc 50/50 mix. If it were me I’d try 12* timing at peak torque and slowly ramp it up to a 17* max by redline, 20lbs, and target 11.3AFR on the WB02.
5.) To see really big gains switching to 100% methanol is the only way to go. This will alter your AFR's alot and you'll be looking at spraying 2-3x as much fluid depending on the amount of boost you want to run.
Last edited by Forcefed86; Feb 5, 2014 at 05:19 PM.
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
From: Perth Australia
Forcefed thanks for all that great information. My main objective when adding the water/meth kit was to help the iats at the back of the track. I have been told not to come back to the track without a full rollcage now so I guess I have time to play around. I have a few things to consider now including throwing the better sized turbo on and playing with the meth on that after the tune.
Been playing with meth inj for 12+ years. This is all just my opinion based on my experiences with it.
1.) Your IAT readings are incorrect. The air flowing around the sensor is nowhere near as cool as the sensor is reading. With your IAT sensor so close to your nozzle the sensor itself is saturated with fluid. The alcohol evaporates off the sensor giving you a false (overly cool) reading. Your logged temperatures dropped dramatically because you switched to a 50/50 mix. Switch to 100% meth and it would drop even more at the same 550cc amount. Using the IAT’s false reading to control timing/fuel/etc is dangerous. Solution to this is to put the IAT sensor upstream of the nozzle. Then leave your IAT maps alone. If you really want to see the benefits of aux injection and alter the tune with these readings, datalog your exhaust gas temps.
2.) The greatest benefit of meth/water injection are its effects in the combustion chamber, not it’s ability to cool the air charge pre-CC. Because of this the majority of your alky should sprayed as close to the combustion chamber as possible. For most this is right at or behind the throttle body. The fact that it cools the air charge some is a secondary benefit. To take full advantage of aux injection, this should be accomplished with added tiny nozzles along the charge piping.(and pre-turbo if done properly.)
3.) Your not spraying much! Imo at 15lbs and 50/50 mix my weight (not volume) you should be spraying more like 1250cc+. The amount your spraying now isn’t going to affect your AFR’s much. I would shoot for 11.0-11.3 AFR while spraying 1250cc+ 50/50 mix. I think your progressive controller settings are fine.
4.) Lastly I wouldn't change a thing with your timing! Don’t add timing with the meth inj. Add boost instead. Can’t stress this enough! If you were running 15psi with no detonation pre-meth inj, you should easily be able to run 20psi (or more) with a 1250cc 50/50 mix. If it were me I’d try 12* timing at peak torque and slowly ramp it up to a 17* max by redline, 20lbs, and target 11.3AFR on the WB02.
5.) To see really big gains switching to 100% methanol is the only way to go. This will alter your AFR's alot and you'll be looking at spraying 2-3x as much fluid depending on the amount of boost you want to run.
1.) Your IAT readings are incorrect. The air flowing around the sensor is nowhere near as cool as the sensor is reading. With your IAT sensor so close to your nozzle the sensor itself is saturated with fluid. The alcohol evaporates off the sensor giving you a false (overly cool) reading. Your logged temperatures dropped dramatically because you switched to a 50/50 mix. Switch to 100% meth and it would drop even more at the same 550cc amount. Using the IAT’s false reading to control timing/fuel/etc is dangerous. Solution to this is to put the IAT sensor upstream of the nozzle. Then leave your IAT maps alone. If you really want to see the benefits of aux injection and alter the tune with these readings, datalog your exhaust gas temps.
2.) The greatest benefit of meth/water injection are its effects in the combustion chamber, not it’s ability to cool the air charge pre-CC. Because of this the majority of your alky should sprayed as close to the combustion chamber as possible. For most this is right at or behind the throttle body. The fact that it cools the air charge some is a secondary benefit. To take full advantage of aux injection, this should be accomplished with added tiny nozzles along the charge piping.(and pre-turbo if done properly.)
3.) Your not spraying much! Imo at 15lbs and 50/50 mix my weight (not volume) you should be spraying more like 1250cc+. The amount your spraying now isn’t going to affect your AFR’s much. I would shoot for 11.0-11.3 AFR while spraying 1250cc+ 50/50 mix. I think your progressive controller settings are fine.
4.) Lastly I wouldn't change a thing with your timing! Don’t add timing with the meth inj. Add boost instead. Can’t stress this enough! If you were running 15psi with no detonation pre-meth inj, you should easily be able to run 20psi (or more) with a 1250cc 50/50 mix. If it were me I’d try 12* timing at peak torque and slowly ramp it up to a 17* max by redline, 20lbs, and target 11.3AFR on the WB02.
5.) To see really big gains switching to 100% methanol is the only way to go. This will alter your AFR's alot and you'll be looking at spraying 2-3x as much fluid depending on the amount of boost you want to run.
