Well this is getting interesting.

For a road race application this just doesn't make sense. Really he should have just upgraded from the D1 to a F series instead of going through all of this trouble or just get the IPS or AGP TT kits. Either way N/A would have been optimal for road racing.

 

Sadly the better options were probably much more trouble free and cheaper. Hell, leaving the d1 on it would have been a great choice.

 

I pm'd ADM well before this tune issue popped up. We had other problems well before this and not tune related. I always have a backup plan in case **** gets real bad. Just part of my thinking/training over the last 25 or so years. I guess thats a bad thing Never did i call anyone about tuning. Just help from another great shop incase things went further south.

I research the **** out of things before making decisions. I know Karger will nail this issue.

this car does not seem to like change btw.

Thanks Dave, you helped me out last time. It is appreciated

Valid point, should have cooled down a bit. And getting on the internet and posting drunk should be considered worse than DUI! My bad Steve! I have been real patient though.....have I not. I know you guys are on it.

Thanks Nick, but remember this is a STREET Car that will occasionally see a road course on a track day. No competition, just want to drive the car the way JusticePete set up this suspension. North Tx is not known for great canyon carving.

No interest in going 0-150 in 10 or so seconds since i've done that thousands upon thousands times in a different vehicle.

Sam, what transpired between myself and the other shop is really none of your business but i respect your reputation. We worked this out years ago and i even had a couple Ferraris from some of my trainees set to go down and visit. They ended up chickening out, afraid the cars would not pass inspection in their home countries.

HOw does "check six" equate to "threaten to kill". Its a fighter pilot term that i guess some could read too much into. We had heated words back and forth....and worked it out years ago.

Thanks for your concern.



Oh, you nailed that one! No argument here. I certainly can be, but it takes a whole lot to get me there.

You nailed it Detoxx! I wanted an F1x then decided to maybe try the AGP kit which i was loving the write-ups on. SNL talked me into a custom TT setup and i am very glad i went this route. I will post some pics later after work. It really is an impressive setup but has been a nightmare. Been sans(without) car for 4 months now. Steve and James Karger are getting it done and i have all the faith in the world in them. This has been a frustrating ordeal, and the whole story is not known!

This is a big build and i know **** can and does go wrong. Im just a big baby and i want my toy!! Deal with it!

Remember its a street car primarily, not a dedicated road racer. I have my factory LS3 that will be sleeved and run 440 or so cubes with a big *** PatG cam and 13:1 CR if i get the road racing bug.

I do have the ability to run base psi of 4.35 on the gates with the dedicated CO2 setup and BoostLeash boost by gear controller.

SNL and James Karger will make it trouble free! I have no doubt.

I loved the D1 but this motor was begging for more. The D1 was out of steam. HKE built me a hell of a motor and it wanted to be challenged a bit. Hell, look at the dyno results.

I settled on 20psi and the 1207whp. I calculated that it would probably only get between 1000 and 1100 at this boost. My calculations were conservative however.

 

Boost control figured out or is it still hooked to the shop air to control boost? That makes the boost leash have a whole new meaning when it tied to a shop to work.

My point about power band was it is a street car, so that is why I think you are going to be disappointed in the end, but we shall see. If it was a drag car then it looks ok but for a road race/street/fun car that seems very laggy.

 

The 5 # CO2 tank is hooked in now. Its an M6 so being in the appropriate gear will help me be where i need to be on the curve. I learned this with the D1. Romping on it in 3rd gear at 35mph wasnt smart use of the right foot etc., etc.

With what we settled on boost wise, im at 600rwtq to 1000+ rwtq at 4000 to 5000 rpms. That seems pretty stout to me compared to my D1

 

The co2 was hooked up on the runs we posted on the first post except for the 1280 run as we did that before hand...

The car runs very very well on the street and hits boost quite quickly (no load on the dyno), while it's not at all ideal for road racing the boost is setup by gear and can be managed down to just a touch over 4 psi.

As Jim and I have gone over before, there isn't a 1000 rwhp build that's just bolt on and go. Small things come up, it's the nature of the business especially when you're moving into this territory.

In this particular build we had some oiling issues with the scavenge pump, we got that sorted and ate a set of journal bearing Precisions. I had a set of DBB's here and we swapped them in and we were set. The older variation of his catch can from RX Performance was being problematic as well, allowing oil to be pulled from the crankcase to the inlets of the turbos. We ran the vacuum side to the turbo inlets and it became a headache. This setup was exactly as Rene's 1400 rwhp CTSV was setup except he had the newer can and Rene's is perfect... Jim and I discussed this and corrected it by venting a new can to atmosphere. After that is when this tuning issue came up.

All that aside James, Brian from HPTuners, and now Tony from T1 are going over this. We swapped in a set of 1000cc injectors and all is well. We've had a few ID2000 injectors in pump gas car making decent power and none had issues like this. James sent the tune over to Tony at T1 to see what he thought. Brian at HPTuners told us it's either the PCM or the injectors and that if we had a set to swap them and try - sure enough it solved the issue. Of course now it's pouring rain outside and hailing just north of us so we surely won't be driving it today. That said, James is discussing what Jim wants to do as far as timeline and we'll get him handled.

Jim - I appreciate the kind words. Drunk texting and posting is never good. LOL

Everyone else - I appreciate the opinions and questions about the setup.

 

You "ate" the journal turbos ? I know not literally, but what happened them ?

As for the catch can, it's as easy to vent them local to the air filter, without directly placing them within the confines of the air filter, which will leave them prone to actually pulling air from the line. Especially with small filters.

What was the problem with the injectors ? Which injectors ?

As for any debate about blowers and turbos....it could go on forever.

The supercharger will definitely have better throttle response and that feels superb.

But a turbocharged setup is just far more flexible in terms of control over power options and to a degree power delivery via some intelligent boost control.

Yes you can also manipulate SC boost too, but just not as easy or efficiently as with turbos. So as long as you dont build in too much lag, turbos just offer a far wider range of power options, over a wider rpm range too.

Both are awesome though when working properly.

 

some pics

 

Some notes, if I may.

Part of the issue was not scaling for the injectors. The injector data itself wasn't quite proper either. The flow rate was maxed out at 127 lb/hr, but the offsets were entered as if the system was still returnless. Also, the makeup minimum pulse was left unchanged at 0.250ms, which can also cause issues.



I'd recommend entering the flow rate at 120.85 lb/hr, and grabbing the 58psi (delta) column from the data sheet and entering that everywhere in the offsets. This way, the system will behave truly like a boost referenced system (where the pressure delta is constant). Dropping the minimum makeup pulse to 0.125ms will help too. Next, take the factory stoich AFR table and double it. Return all spark tables to stock. This compensates for the 50% scaling of the injector flow rate and balances everything out. There's on parameter that HPT still needs to map for all operating systems to correct the IVT calculation, but it's mostly transparent. From here, airflow values will be more typical as well as cylinder loads, so the system should act more predictable. Final idle air also seems really high for the manifold vacuum at idle.

I understand that it has already been changed to ID1000s, but if there's a last hoorah, start with that. I'd hazard a guess that there's pretty significant impact from the EVAP system coming into play as well.

 

A couple more

 

Definitely appreciate your insight and willingness to help, the tune has been through quite a few iterations and the one you must have seen was somewhere in that mix. The first rendition of the tune was based on what the car came in with (obviously modified as the car was a centri car and now twin turbo), we ran into this issue first with that tune (tuned by a very respected tuner). At that point we tried everything (including most of the things you've mentioned) to no avail. We then tried a known good working tune from a very similar build (albeit not pump gas). This exhibited the same symptoms. We then tried starting from scratch and doing a 2 bar SD OS, this is what you must have seen as this tune only had the basic injector data pasted in it with no modifications.

The car is now on 1000's and working flawlessly, it has been dyno'd as well as driven an hour or two this afternoon/evening and never a hiccup. We are seeing in the low 70% duty cycle at 20psi making mid 1100's to the tire.

Thanks again!

 

I got what was sent to T1. No idea when it's from.

I'll take those 2000s and put them to use in John Bentley's Camaro since he wants to run E85 and seven million pounds of boost. Lol.

 

If using ID1000's, make sure filtration is meticulous. They are ridiculously fussy about cleanliness.

I wouldn't use them again after experience on a friends car. They claim they need better than 10 micron filtration.

After less than 2 months limited use, flow had dropped to less than 700cc, the first set actually stopped working completely. That was with 30 micron, and clean fuel. The other secondary injectors on the same car were fine throughout.

 

I've done tons of cars with ID1000s and no issue. I personally run a 10 micro filter, but I've used them on lots of other vehicles with looser filtration, and they're all still kicking years later. Unicorn blood goes in the oil, not the gas tank!

 

I ran them for the last 12000 miles with my centri setup with no issues. Running an Aeromotive 40micron filter. No issues. As a matter of fact i sold them when going with the ID2000s. Kind of wish i held onto them now.

Anyway, im relieved to hear they were only low 70s in duty cycle at 20psi and mid 1100s on the dyno yesterday. Meth must really be helping.

 

Call me, they're for sale.

 

Car just left with a happy customer. After the injectors were swapped all is well and the car runs just as hard as it did before, now without b.s.! Thanks to James Karger and Brian from HPTuners on getting this settled. We've used a few sets of ID's without issues, not sure what it was but glad it's handled now.

Again, I appreciate all the feedback from everyone.

 

Just got home, 2 hour drive, car was flawless and made 18mpg at 75. Dialed the boost leash to 13 psi gate pressure which is i assume about 15 psi.

Car was slippery at more that 6....couldnt really get more that 6 psi without letting off. It was pretty cool out, about 65 deg. This was on my road course tires, Michelin PSS 305/30 R19s on all corners.

This is way more fun than my D1SC so far. I guess 6 psi would be about 700 or so whp. I remember the early dyno runs a while back at 10psi the car was topping mid 800s.

Lots of drama here but cooler heads prevail. Tons of extra work by Steve and James Karger....I mean tons of trouble shooting. It all worked out and i wasnt even charged for the extra BS they had to deal with.

SNL and JK thanks again.

Next up is a Monster triple carbon and RPM level 6 TR6060. I want to drive for at least a few months however. Waiting sucks!!!! But is understandable at these levels....but still sucks

 

Be better off getting a RPS BC3

 

Glad to hear and appreciate the update, Chris

Had a BC3 not hold 1100rwhp and to clarify our new triple is Ceramic.