My water/meth results***no intercooler meth users inside***
05-29-2014, 10:38 PM
#21
Seems really odd you don’t see AFR changes. Have you tested/calibrated your WB02 lately? Popped it out of the exhaust and verified it reads "air" or "lean" in under a minute or so?
Are you using the kit for a little insurance/cleaning? Or do you want serious power from it? I'd assume since you run no IC you want to go all out with it?
What base fuel do you run?
What timing?
What AFR?
How much boost to you launch at?
Is this a progressive kit?
Have you verified the actual pump pressure? (Lots of the older pumps won't put out near the advertised pressures with large nozzles.)
There is no "catch up" to play. Spraying earlier just wets down your sensor earlier and gives you false readings more quickly. Actual inlet temps are nowhere near what your AIT sensor is claiming. As said, its best to have your sensor as far as possible from the inj point (rear of intake possibly) or before it. The data a wet AIT sensor provides is useless. Don't tune with it.
IMO, If you want to get the most out of the kit and really get some power back you should:
Are you using the kit for a little insurance/cleaning? Or do you want serious power from it? I'd assume since you run no IC you want to go all out with it?
What base fuel do you run?
What timing?
What AFR?
How much boost to you launch at?
Is this a progressive kit?
Have you verified the actual pump pressure? (Lots of the older pumps won't put out near the advertised pressures with large nozzles.)
There is no "catch up" to play. Spraying earlier just wets down your sensor earlier and gives you false readings more quickly. Actual inlet temps are nowhere near what your AIT sensor is claiming. As said, its best to have your sensor as far as possible from the inj point (rear of intake possibly) or before it. The data a wet AIT sensor provides is useless. Don't tune with it.
IMO, If you want to get the most out of the kit and really get some power back you should:
E85 car, running 14.5/16* of timing in boost, AFR around the 11.5/11.7 range, launching at 8-10 psi, no progression, 50/50 mix currently.
I will start by lowering the activation level, and then play with mixtures. Get some more logs and I will be back with the results after the weekend.
05-30-2014, 09:27 AM
#26
Is this an 1/8th mile only setup? Whats the goal? You were at 5.80's last time out? Or was that just for the license? Was that at 20lbs or was I looking at an old post? If it's only an 1/8th mile car elevated inlet temps aren't a big of a deal either because your not sustaining them for long. I wouldn't sweat your current IAT temps.
Does Rodney at AIS drag race a non-intercooled turbo e85 car? Not saying anything bad about the guy, but some of his advise seems off for a drag car. I'd prefer talking to people with direct experience drag racing v8 turbo cars on large amounts of aux injection. Lots of the kit vendors are great people, but many don't actually race. (maybe he does, not talking down at the man)
I don't agree with lowering the inj point with your type of kit. Not like it will hurt anything to try though. With 50/50 you are spraying a lot of water. Lowering the activation point without a progressive kit will just bog the engine down. With E85 and that monster turbo I can't imagine you'd need the injection on before 10psi. I'd set it to 12ish if you launch at 10.
There is no accurate/easy way to measure the "real" charge temp drop with alky injection I'm aware of. It's not a number you should base your timing table on. Having your actual IAT temperature reading with no AUX inj influence is a better tuning aid. I'd be curious what your IAT actually is without any liquid on your sensor. Your only going to get a small amount of actual cooling in the charge piping/turbo. Most of the cooling and benefits of meth/water take place in the CC from what I've read/seen. What do the plugs look like?
Straight methanol will make a huge difference, though you should up the nozzle size a ton IMO to get the best effect. Adding it all in at once with big jets will make the car bog initially and then slowly pick up. If you're going to really take advantage of the aux inj in the 1\8th you almost need a progressive kit.
Tons of different ways to make HP. Don't take this the wrong way I'm not telling how to tune your car, just trying to help and learn myself. With that big *** turbo and cam I'm sure adding some timing back to the tune will help alot. Successful E85 Non-intercooled setups I'm familiar with max out the IAT sensors(250+), run rich AFR's (mid to low 10's), and timing similar to yours now with no meth injection... and they are 1/4 mile cars. I wouldn't be too concerned with your current IAT's. I believe I read Silver_82 runs single digit timing at peak torque, maxes out the IAT sensor well before the end of the 1/4. Running a stock 5.3 to 5.51 1/8th and 8.5x @ 160 1/4 in a 3300lb truck at 25psi on twin 66's. No meth inj.
Does Rodney at AIS drag race a non-intercooled turbo e85 car? Not saying anything bad about the guy, but some of his advise seems off for a drag car. I'd prefer talking to people with direct experience drag racing v8 turbo cars on large amounts of aux injection. Lots of the kit vendors are great people, but many don't actually race. (maybe he does, not talking down at the man)
I don't agree with lowering the inj point with your type of kit. Not like it will hurt anything to try though. With 50/50 you are spraying a lot of water. Lowering the activation point without a progressive kit will just bog the engine down. With E85 and that monster turbo I can't imagine you'd need the injection on before 10psi. I'd set it to 12ish if you launch at 10.
There is no accurate/easy way to measure the "real" charge temp drop with alky injection I'm aware of. It's not a number you should base your timing table on. Having your actual IAT temperature reading with no AUX inj influence is a better tuning aid. I'd be curious what your IAT actually is without any liquid on your sensor. Your only going to get a small amount of actual cooling in the charge piping/turbo. Most of the cooling and benefits of meth/water take place in the CC from what I've read/seen. What do the plugs look like?
Straight methanol will make a huge difference, though you should up the nozzle size a ton IMO to get the best effect. Adding it all in at once with big jets will make the car bog initially and then slowly pick up. If you're going to really take advantage of the aux inj in the 1\8th you almost need a progressive kit.
Tons of different ways to make HP. Don't take this the wrong way I'm not telling how to tune your car, just trying to help and learn myself. With that big *** turbo and cam I'm sure adding some timing back to the tune will help alot. Successful E85 Non-intercooled setups I'm familiar with max out the IAT sensors(250+), run rich AFR's (mid to low 10's), and timing similar to yours now with no meth injection... and they are 1/4 mile cars. I wouldn't be too concerned with your current IAT's. I believe I read Silver_82 runs single digit timing at peak torque, maxes out the IAT sensor well before the end of the 1/4. Running a stock 5.3 to 5.51 1/8th and 8.5x @ 160 1/4 in a 3300lb truck at 25psi on twin 66's. No meth inj.
05-30-2014, 10:58 AM
#28
It’s what the diesel guys use. A lot better information than a saturated IAT sensor provides. Problem with EGT is the readings will differ depending on the location of the sensor. So there is no good guide line for a specific target/range of EGT. All setups will be different. Should still give great before and after information if it was logged. Individual cylinder EGT data logging would be even better. Not very economical or practical to do though.
05-30-2014, 12:53 PM
#29
It’s what the diesel guys use. A lot better information than a saturated IAT sensor provides. Problem with EGT is the readings will differ depending on the location of the sensor. So there is no good guide line for a specific target/range of EGT. All setups will be different. Should still give great before and after information if it was logged. Individual cylinder EGT data logging would be even better. Not very economical or practical to do though.
05-31-2014, 06:11 PM
#33
The volume of air moved VS the volume of fluid injected aren't anywhere near equal.
Dip your hand in alcohol and wave it around. Your not cooling the air around your hand, but your hand will be much cooler. Just like the IAT sensor.
Look at the indicated temps on your average IAT sensor that is saturated with fluid VS the IAT temps of a properly matched liquid/air ice filled intercooler. The alky skewed IAT temps will be lower. Yet Liquid/Air IC has proven many times it is capable of making more power.
05-31-2014, 06:33 PM
#34
Don't get bent out of shape with temp this temp that. What it is doing in the chamber is the key
You can't look at the temperature the same regardless compared to an actual charge cooler
Take a setup that has a locked open loop tune, running x amount of boost
Take water that has zero fuel value..... it is showing you a drop in intake temperature. But you will not see an increase in fuel demand that should come from the cooling and contraction/denser intake air
Same setup but with a a2w... running the same boost and with the pump on vs off you most definately see a difference in fueling demand (power)
e
You can't look at the temperature the same regardless compared to an actual charge cooler
Take a setup that has a locked open loop tune, running x amount of boost
Take water that has zero fuel value..... it is showing you a drop in intake temperature. But you will not see an increase in fuel demand that should come from the cooling and contraction/denser intake air
Same setup but with a a2w... running the same boost and with the pump on vs off you most definately see a difference in fueling demand (power)
e
05-31-2014, 08:35 PM
#35
The way it was explained to me...
The volume of air moved VS the volume of fluid injected aren't anywhere near equal.
Dip your hand in alcohol and wave it around. Your not cooling the air around your hand, but your hand will be much cooler. Just like the IAT sensor.
Look at the indicated temps on your average IAT sensor that is saturated with fluid VS the IAT temps of a properly matched liquid/air ice filled intercooler. The alky skewed IAT temps will be lower. Yet Liquid/Air IC has proven many times it is capable of making more power.
The volume of air moved VS the volume of fluid injected aren't anywhere near equal.
Dip your hand in alcohol and wave it around. Your not cooling the air around your hand, but your hand will be much cooler. Just like the IAT sensor.
Look at the indicated temps on your average IAT sensor that is saturated with fluid VS the IAT temps of a properly matched liquid/air ice filled intercooler. The alky skewed IAT temps will be lower. Yet Liquid/Air IC has proven many times it is capable of making more power.
also i have not personally seen any results where intercooler outperformed a well specified water injection system. care to link to a couple?
Don't get bent out of shape with temp this temp that. What it is doing in the chamber is the key
You can't look at the temperature the same regardless compared to an actual charge cooler
Take a setup that has a locked open loop tune, running x amount of boost
Take water that has zero fuel value..... it is showing you a drop in intake temperature. But you will not see an increase in fuel demand that should come from the cooling and contraction/denser intake air
Same setup but with a a2w... running the same boost and with the pump on vs off you most definately see a difference in fueling demand (power)
e
You can't look at the temperature the same regardless compared to an actual charge cooler
Take a setup that has a locked open loop tune, running x amount of boost
Take water that has zero fuel value..... it is showing you a drop in intake temperature. But you will not see an increase in fuel demand that should come from the cooling and contraction/denser intake air
Same setup but with a a2w... running the same boost and with the pump on vs off you most definately see a difference in fueling demand (power)
e
1. water injection has been proven to reduce the brake specific fuel consumption of an engine- it can make the same power while using less fuel.
2. water injection slows the burn rate - timing needs to be more advanced than without water for maximum BMEP.
05-31-2014, 08:45 PM
#36
Both have nothing to do with the point I was making
Simply an actual charge cooler offers more oxygen in the cylinder at the same pressure ratio when used vs not used
Water injection does not
Simply an actual charge cooler offers more oxygen in the cylinder at the same pressure ratio when used vs not used
Water injection does not
05-31-2014, 08:51 PM
#37
its not so easy to see with water injection because it may not show increased fuel consumption, again because water has been proven to raise BMEP and reduce BSFC. you turn on the water and the fuel consumption may not have increased but it doesnt mean the power output did not increase
05-31-2014, 09:05 PM
#38
Whatever you say. Its not even close
Friend same day back to back on the dyno
Timing at 25*. Fueling same target AFR. E85
Two 15gph nozzles of 50/50, 25psi made 960whp
Remove pipe replace with a2w and re dyno in 40 minutes and 20psi makes 990...
I'm not here to say that a fuckton of power can't be made non intercooled and using auxillary injection, but it will be at an elevated pressure ratio vs using a true charge cooler
ng
Friend same day back to back on the dyno
Timing at 25*. Fueling same target AFR. E85
Two 15gph nozzles of 50/50, 25psi made 960whp
Remove pipe replace with a2w and re dyno in 40 minutes and 20psi makes 990...
I'm not here to say that a fuckton of power can't be made non intercooled and using auxillary injection, but it will be at an elevated pressure ratio vs using a true charge cooler
ng
05-31-2014, 09:21 PM
#40
No timing was held constant. Though both ways where close on the plug, br7
The water does indeed keep the chamber happy
Yes ice,
160-180 on the meth pulls
60-80 on the ice
The water does indeed keep the chamber happy
Yes ice,
160-180 on the meth pulls
60-80 on the ice