Water injection before intercooler? good? bad?
I'm honestly not sure. We cannot log these things without a standalone. I do know that the blower and charge pipe to the IC are too hot to touch. The blower is not water cooled or anything and it is enclosed in the hull of the ski.
I've also thought about using copper tubing and shaping it and coiling it around the blower housing and using thermal epoxy and running water through that as well to help out.
I've also thought about using copper tubing and shaping it and coiling it around the blower housing and using thermal epoxy and running water through that as well to help out.
9 Second Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 13,616
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From: Norn Iron
There are various loggers that could be used....really, it would be better to know what you're trying to correct or improve, before correcting it
Also not sure how feasible using surrounding water as a source would be ?
Unless you could direct that water into a reservoir first, and for the pump to draw off this, to ensure a solid supply of water.
But if you're looking to inject water only, you will need a good controller that properly references off engine load ( eg Aquamist ), most just use boost only which is not a proper engine load reference on its own.
And when using water only, you will use far smaller amounts than when you start mixing with meth.
If the compressor/blower get very hot during use, injecting pre-compressor might be a good approach here
Also not sure how feasible using surrounding water as a source would be ?
Unless you could direct that water into a reservoir first, and for the pump to draw off this, to ensure a solid supply of water.
But if you're looking to inject water only, you will need a good controller that properly references off engine load ( eg Aquamist ), most just use boost only which is not a proper engine load reference on its own.
And when using water only, you will use far smaller amounts than when you start mixing with meth.
If the compressor/blower get very hot during use, injecting pre-compressor might be a good approach here
Thanks for the replies guys.
What are some loggers I could use? None of the aftermarket ECU guys offer logging (that I know of) except the standalones (Vipec, Motec, Athena, etc).
Also, since the blower is oil lubed, do I have to worry about water getting past seals in the blower and into the engine oil?
I was thinking since I have 100+ psi of water available all the time from the jet pump, I could avoid a water injection pump. Just have the solenoid in between the jet pump and nozzle (and filter the water).
Thanks again!
What are some loggers I could use? None of the aftermarket ECU guys offer logging (that I know of) except the standalones (Vipec, Motec, Athena, etc).
Also, since the blower is oil lubed, do I have to worry about water getting past seals in the blower and into the engine oil?
I was thinking since I have 100+ psi of water available all the time from the jet pump, I could avoid a water injection pump. Just have the solenoid in between the jet pump and nozzle (and filter the water).
Thanks again!
9 Second Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 13,616
Likes: 185
From: Norn Iron
Thanks for the replies guys.
What are some loggers I could use? None of the aftermarket ECU guys offer logging (that I know of) except the standalones (Vipec, Motec, Athena, etc).
Also, since the blower is oil lubed, do I have to worry about water getting past seals in the blower and into the engine oil?
I was thinking since I have 100+ psi of water available all the time from the jet pump, I could avoid a water injection pump. Just have the solenoid in between the jet pump and nozzle (and filter the water).
Thanks again!
What are some loggers I could use? None of the aftermarket ECU guys offer logging (that I know of) except the standalones (Vipec, Motec, Athena, etc).
Also, since the blower is oil lubed, do I have to worry about water getting past seals in the blower and into the engine oil?
I was thinking since I have 100+ psi of water available all the time from the jet pump, I could avoid a water injection pump. Just have the solenoid in between the jet pump and nozzle (and filter the water).
Thanks again!
The likes of Innovate, PLX Devices, Zeitroniz, AEM etc all offer standalone basic loggers, as do most dash displays ( maybe not all practical in wet environments though.
Certainly if you have a solid water supply at 100psi then you could use an aquamist controller along with their FAV ( fast acting valve ) as a solenoid to meter the flow into the engine, injecting pre-compressor as before.
If you go airbourne and lose water supply, engine load would also drop, so losing the water shouldnt be a terrible thing ?
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Verdad Gallardo It would be a pretty crap ecu if it didnt offer logging.
The likes of Innovate, PLX Devices, Zeitroniz, AEM etc all offer standalone basic loggers, as do most dash displays ( maybe not all practical in wet environments though.
Certainly if you have a solid water supply at 100psi then you could use an aquamist controller along with their FAV ( fast acting valve ) as a solenoid to meter the flow into the engine, injecting pre-compressor as before.
If you go airbourne and lose water supply, engine load would also drop, so losing the water shouldnt be a terrible thing ?
The likes of Innovate, PLX Devices, Zeitroniz, AEM etc all offer standalone basic loggers, as do most dash displays ( maybe not all practical in wet environments though.
Certainly if you have a solid water supply at 100psi then you could use an aquamist controller along with their FAV ( fast acting valve ) as a solenoid to meter the flow into the engine, injecting pre-compressor as before.
If you go airbourne and lose water supply, engine load would also drop, so losing the water shouldnt be a terrible thing ?
That's correct, I may lose pump pressure but it would be so an extremely short amount of time. And if I went airborne at WOT, I'd have other problems, like me flying off, haha.
Thanks again!
Two .75 nozzles @ 100 psi aren’t going to hurt it any IMO. And the system won’t rely on the aux injection to keep it out of detonation at those levels either. Actual inlet temp data isn’t going to tell him much anyway. Other than it’s hot… or it’s hotter. Generally you calculate the volume of “spray” needed by the engine displacement, boost, rpm. That’s what the nozzle size calculators use anyway.
Use the nozzle size calculator here for a decent guess.
http://www.alcohol-injection.com/en/
I don’t know you’re RPM, I assume it’s pretty high. . I found this calc. to be pretty accurate for 50/50. I cut the number they give in half with straight water and double it with straight meth. Basic aux injection kits aren’t an exact science.
Use the nozzle size calculator here for a decent guess.
http://www.alcohol-injection.com/en/
I don’t know you’re RPM, I assume it’s pretty high. . I found this calc. to be pretty accurate for 50/50. I cut the number they give in half with straight water and double it with straight meth. Basic aux injection kits aren’t an exact science.
The calculator for me said 3.33
Engine is a 1.8L, 8800rpm max, 17lbs boost at that rpm.
I think I'll give it a shot. If the heat fade goes away or if I pick up RPM, I'll know it's working.
Any input on my question about spraying it pre-blower? Any harm to the blower in doing that?
Thanks,
Adam
Engine is a 1.8L, 8800rpm max, 17lbs boost at that rpm.
I think I'll give it a shot. If the heat fade goes away or if I pick up RPM, I'll know it's working.
Any input on my question about spraying it pre-blower? Any harm to the blower in doing that?
Thanks,
Adam
So two .75 nozzles at 100psi will be about 1.5 gph. Right where you want to be. Make sure to filter the water pre nozzle. Even if you’re boost/rpm doesn’t’ rise it will help power output and “steam clean” your engine. There are no down sides to running it IMO. You’ll need a solenoid and pressure switch. I’d move the activation point up to where you can’t feel it turn on. It may bog the motor down if you activate it too early in the RPM/boost range. Around 15psi I’d guess.
If you have a true 100psi the droplets of water should be small enough with .75 gph nozzles that you won’t hurt it. I used two .75 nozzles pre-turbo for years on 16g turbo pushing 30+lbs and never saw any blade erosion/damage. (though it was at higher pressure). You’re blower compressor turns much less RPM, I think it will be fine.
If you have a true 100psi the droplets of water should be small enough with .75 gph nozzles that you won’t hurt it. I used two .75 nozzles pre-turbo for years on 16g turbo pushing 30+lbs and never saw any blade erosion/damage. (though it was at higher pressure). You’re blower compressor turns much less RPM, I think it will be fine.
Alright I'm going to give it a try. Right now I'm doing GPS verified consistent 82mph with 84-85mph spurts. If I can get rid of the fade, it should get me closer to consistent 84-85.
My blower RPM is in the 80k range.
I'm looking into filters now. I'd like to run 2 and stagger them, like a 100um then a 10um. Also, any input on whose nozzles work well? And run both nozzles pre blower?
Thanks!
My blower RPM is in the 80k range.
I'm looking into filters now. I'd like to run 2 and stagger them, like a 100um then a 10um. Also, any input on whose nozzles work well? And run both nozzles pre blower?
Thanks!
Multiple smaller nozzles will give you smaller droplets, better for pre-blower injection.
Not a simple yes/no answers to your question on placement. Multiple nozzle placement is best, but adds complexity to the system. Most likely you don’t have the equipment necessary to measure the increased performance found by splitting up the nozzle locations. One injection site pre-TB is the norm. You still have to fight manifold pressure in this location, where pre compressor you do not. You will need a check valve/solenoid to prevent siphoning as mentioned earlier in either location.
Pre-comp injection helps compressor efficiency. It will cool the blower unit/charge and assist in “wet compression”. Since you run an IC as well, fluid can “puddle up” in the intercooler if you inject too much. (which is bad)
Ideally you want to run a small enough volume pre-compressor that the majority of the fluid is vaporized before it enters the IC. Then inject the majority of the fluid post intercooler as close to the TB as possible.
Working with a tiny engine you are limited. I’m not aware of nozzles smaller than .75 gph. (not saying they don’t exist). For simplicity in your case I’d just “T” the nozzles and run one .75 pre compressor and one .75 pre TB.
For example I run 2gph pre turbo and 12gph at the TB. 50/50 mix @ 250 psi. I’ve never seen a drop of fluid in my intercooler and I have pulled it after several passes.
Not a simple yes/no answers to your question on placement. Multiple nozzle placement is best, but adds complexity to the system. Most likely you don’t have the equipment necessary to measure the increased performance found by splitting up the nozzle locations. One injection site pre-TB is the norm. You still have to fight manifold pressure in this location, where pre compressor you do not. You will need a check valve/solenoid to prevent siphoning as mentioned earlier in either location.
Pre-comp injection helps compressor efficiency. It will cool the blower unit/charge and assist in “wet compression”. Since you run an IC as well, fluid can “puddle up” in the intercooler if you inject too much. (which is bad)
Ideally you want to run a small enough volume pre-compressor that the majority of the fluid is vaporized before it enters the IC. Then inject the majority of the fluid post intercooler as close to the TB as possible.
Working with a tiny engine you are limited. I’m not aware of nozzles smaller than .75 gph. (not saying they don’t exist). For simplicity in your case I’d just “T” the nozzles and run one .75 pre compressor and one .75 pre TB.
For example I run 2gph pre turbo and 12gph at the TB. 50/50 mix @ 250 psi. I’ve never seen a drop of fluid in my intercooler and I have pulled it after several passes.
Last edited by Forcefed86; Aug 19, 2015 at 12:58 PM.
9 Second Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 13,616
Likes: 185
From: Norn Iron
As you're in the US one of the main Aquamist people there is Howertons
http://howertonengineering.com/hower...quamist-items/
They'll have filters, nozzles etc and Aquamist probably have a alrger range of small nozzles than anyone.
Aquamist actually do some very good small nozzles with built in check valves, so they can be used in the intake manifold, or where syphoning might occur when it isnt in use
http://www.aquamist-direct.com/806-5...-applications/
As for flow/sizing, generally this is based on power, boost/rpm etc etc will all play a part, which is why metering flow based on engine load is best, as it takes all thee factors into account....the easiest way being to flow based on fuel demand, ie injector duty
If you're going to forego a controller and rely solely on your jet pump and the nozzles, pre-compressor with small nozzles and perhaps try larger step by step until you either see a performance gain or loss.
As for injecting pre-compressor...if done correctly there will be no risk at all.
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/vbulletin/...read.php?t=251
http://howertonengineering.com/hower...quamist-items/
They'll have filters, nozzles etc and Aquamist probably have a alrger range of small nozzles than anyone.
Aquamist actually do some very good small nozzles with built in check valves, so they can be used in the intake manifold, or where syphoning might occur when it isnt in use
http://www.aquamist-direct.com/806-5...-applications/
As for flow/sizing, generally this is based on power, boost/rpm etc etc will all play a part, which is why metering flow based on engine load is best, as it takes all thee factors into account....the easiest way being to flow based on fuel demand, ie injector duty
If you're going to forego a controller and rely solely on your jet pump and the nozzles, pre-compressor with small nozzles and perhaps try larger step by step until you either see a performance gain or loss.
As for injecting pre-compressor...if done correctly there will be no risk at all.
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/vbulletin/...read.php?t=251
