Hey guys, wrapping up my 5.3/turbo swap on my '75 Chevrolet Monza and there is no room to run an intercooler like I originally planned. So, instead of an intercooler I am going to go with a dual or triple nozzle Methanol/water injection setup, one in front of the compressor, right in front of the impeller. I know it has to be a smaller nozzle like a DO3 pre-compressor, then probably a single DO14 nozzle or twin DO10 nozzles before the throttle body.

The car will never be a daily driver, just a Saturday night cruiser and maybe a race day a couple times per year. The 5.3 is just a JY special with a 2004 LS6 cam that used to have a TVS1900 supercharger on it when it was in my 2wd K5. Now it has 2.00/1.57" stainless valves in the stock heads then reassembled with copper coated LS9 head gaskets and Pro-Comp head studs. The turbo is a T4 Chinese T72, .96 exhaust A/R. Stock '98 F-Body exhaust manifold on the driver side, fed into a log manifold on the passenger side.

Wasn't planning on more than 10 psi, maybe 12 psi max when I still thought I could stuff an intercooler in somewhere, I know now that I might be limited even more so with just methanol/water.

Any reason this won't work without an intercooler? Opinions? Thanks guys.

 

I think it would work fine and I would contact alkycontrol or AIS about a setup. They will spec the nozzles that you need and give you an idea of what ratio water/meth to use for your needs.

 

I think I talked to the guys at alkycontrol when I was finishing up my turbo setup in the Blazer. If I recall, they weren't interested in helping me unless I wanted to run 100% (M1) methanol. I could be mistaken, it was almost 2 years ago.

I will definitely call AIS though.

Thanks for the reply.

Anyone else have an opinion?

 

Im pretty sure alkycontrol prefers to run 100% meth based on what he has personally used and seen. I dont believe AIS has the same frame of mind.

 

From what I've read that setup would work. Just run you a sending unit to the meth tank to remind you to fill up! That would suck.

Also, got any pictures of your Blazer build? I'm building my K1500 into a street truck as well and would love to see a smilar truck!

 

if you only plan on 12 psi max i wouldnt even worry about water meth or an intercooler.

when i was running a 5.3 with a ebay gt45 i was at 12 lbs and 14* timing and worked perfect. intake air temps at 12 psi were only about 175* tops. it ran great and was safe.

 

You can cut those IATs in half with meth.

 

i agree, but how much benefit would there be compared to the cost and complexity for only 12 lbs? crank the boost up then hell ya spray it!

 

This doesn't answer your question at all, but theres no room for an intercooler tucked up in the nose of the car up front? If there is any way to squeeze one up there, maybe with the charge pipes coming up from the bottom or something and it was my car i would try and engineer something to work. It would give you alot more piece of mind than making sure your tank is full all the time. You know you'll crank up the boost eventually... everyone does haha

 

Id be willing to bet the difference in IATs would be a considerable amount of power for what you spend on the meth kit.

 

I already have the parts for a dual nozzle setup, might as well use them.

I might be able to do the pipes underneath, but it would really limit already low ground clearance, plus it would have to be a really small core size, then there is the issue of air flow through the radiator and boarder line overheating problems I had when idling or WOT blasts with the SBC in the car prior to the LS swap, not to mention adding another restriction of air flow through the radiator.

As far as turning up the boost, not likely since I am sure I will have trouble as it is hooking up with 10 to 12 psi of boost. My K5 Blazer has had the turbo setup (along with a warmed over LQ4 replacing a stock 5.3w/supercharger) and I have only toyed with the boost once, 12 psi of boost is the limit of my 315/35/20's in the rear can handle before going up in smoke and I am quite content with it anyway. The Monza can only handle a 235/60/15 tire and will weigh about half as much as the Blazer. I highly doubt I will be about to put 12 psi of boost through the engine without the exact same results as the Blazer.

I agree, then the fact I already have the parts to piece together a Stage 1 kit, using a Hobbs switch set at 4 psi, just need the pre-compressor nozzle to make it work.

 

if you already own everything the i say go for it!

 

So everyone agrees that with 12 psi or less of boost, I should be good to go with the 50/50 water/methanol mix in lieu of an intercooler?

 

I think you'll be fine with that setup, just tune on meth if you plan on running it 100% of the time, and maybe figure out a way to to run a sending unit to your reservoir, and keep a bottle of 50/50 in the trunk

 

I usually only run 15 degrees of timing regardless on my boost tunes, so I think a meth dependant tune might be overkill unless my IAT's are insane at max boost of 10 or 12 psi.

I am reusing the factory Monza wiper fluid tank for the 50/50 mix initially, it holds about 64 ounces. If all is well after the shakedown period, a custom built 3 to 5 gallon reservoir w/sending unit in the rear inside the spare tire compartment will be next.

 

What are you using for an ECU? Can you pull timing as the IAT rises? I played with turbo buicks and methanol injection for many years. Looking at doing a "Hot Air" LS setup for my next build. 15* may be on the high side depending on what kind of IAT temps you see. IMO your turbo hotside is on the small side as well. Something like a the $230 Gt45 (69mm) turbo would outperform that one hands down. That said, I'm sure you don’t' want to go redoing everything at this point! May want to check your exh. back pressure at some time though. Hot air stuff is much more sensitive to backpressure/reversion.

The lower IAT reported by a sensor saturated with fluid is total BS. Many obsess over this arbitrary number , yet the actual charge temps are nowhere near as low as the sensor reports. I wouldn't ever tune with that information. IMO your IAT sensor should be well upstream of the alcohol injection point. Fluid should never touch the sensor. This will give you accurate real world IAT information. The injection point should be as close to the TB as possible. Ultimately the majority of the benefits from aux injection take place in the combustion chamber. The SLIGHT cooling of the charge temps prior to that point are a small secondary benefit. Pre-injection is great, but there is no way to get an accurate IAT reading using it. Personally I'd tune the car without it. Then add a small nozzle pre-turbo after your done tuning, as it will skew your IAT readings.

The "Devils Own" Alky inj site has a good nozzle calculator that I've had great success using. With a 50/50 mix and a 5.3 at 12lbs you only want about 12-13gph of fluid total. Most nozzles are flow rated at 100psi. So if you have a 300psi pump you need to recalculate the flow. Pressure also drops if larger or multiple nozzles are used. You really need to have a pressure gauge installed to get the nozzle sizing just right. With a 50/50 mix, more fluid usually causes sluggish performance.

Without a seriously upgraded ignition system, you can't physically spray enough 50/50 to match the benefits of 100% meth without ignition issues. This is why 100% meth works better in most cases. Even distribution to the cylinders becomes the major limiting factor with single point AUX injection. There is no real limit to the amount of methanol you can add to the tune otherwise. I replaced roughly 30% of my WOT fuel with methanol on my buick engines. Allowing me to run 25lbs and 25* of timing on 91 octane (engine was intercooled).

Personally, I'd jump right into 2 14gph nozzles at the TB with straight methanol and a progressive controller.

Very small A2W cooler under the dash or in a fender would also work great IMO.

Sweet little car! Good luck, and keep us updated.

 

Finally somebody that understands !! The sensor is giving false info on air temps!!

 

Been saying this for years as it comes of often in the PD / Centri debate all the time.
It is obvious that there is some cooling benefit, although not as much as the sensor would indicate if you are spraying on it. The only good reason to do it this way is as a failsafe. If the meth fails, the sensor reacts quickly and cuts a ton of timing.

 

I am puzzled on the turbo comment. My turbo has a .96 exhaust turbine with 79/68.4mm turbine wheel. All the eBay GT45's I have seen have smaller turbine wheels.

My tuner doesn't use the IAT sensor readings as a basis of tuning, especially since I sway toward more conservative tunes VS max power.

I have a pieced together injection setup, using a Snow pump (supposed to be rated at 220psi). I have a 14GPH nozzle, holder, and check valve from Devil's Own. I have considered 100% methanol over 50/50 mix several times, however it has me gun shy due to watching a few guys burn their **** down because of a leak and invisible flames are hard to see.

 

Turbine wheel is size is usually dictated by the smaller exducer diameter. The GT45 clones have a 77/87 exh wheel and a 69/98mm compressor with a 1.05AR t4 housing.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GT45-TURBOCHARGER-TURBO-600-HP-BOOST-UNIVERSAL-T4-T66-3-5-V-BAND-1-05-A-R-92-/381181800249?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item58c034af39&vxp=mtr

When using methanol you need to take the same precautions you would with a fuel line. It really is no different or more dangerous than fuel injection. Proper fuel injection hoses rated for methanol should be used for 100% Methanol. SS hardline or PTFE fuel line with AN fittings are your best bet. Pure meth swells the O-rings in the push-to-connect quick fittings included with most AUX Injection Kits. This basically makes them one time use with straight meth. If you pull a line and try to reinsert it, it will usually damage the O-ring and leak. This is the source of many fires.

I'm not saying a 50/50 mix won't help a ton. It just doesn't work as well as it could. If your using the standard 220psi Snow pump, a 14gph nozzle will flow around 20gph at 220psi. Too much for 50/50 in your setup IMO. A 9gph nozzle around 13.3gph at 220psi. It will most likely flow closer to 12gph once you factor in boost pressure and pump flow losses. Good starting point anyway.