Boost spike, now noise/oil pressure problems).
10-03-2015, 08:21 AM
#41
9 Second Club
The relay wiring seems odd.
Every car I've seen in the last 20-30 years, the ecu always drives the outputs, including that to energise the relay, to ground.
yet you've a drawing stating you're providing a ground via either direct wiring or via a hobbs switch. In that case as the ecu also provides a ground, neither of those relays should ever energise.
The only time the ecu output would ever be 12v, is when it is de-energised, ie pump off ( ie 12v is then applied to both sides of the relay coil so it will be off ). That's just because of how the internal circuits on ecu's work.
Same for the likes of injectors they trigger to ground to energise the injector, and apply 12v to turn it off again, with a key based 12v supply to the other side.
Not sure if it's just how you've drawn the diagram, or if that is actually how you've it configured ?
But to me, it is not correct and should not work correctly.
Every car I've seen in the last 20-30 years, the ecu always drives the outputs, including that to energise the relay, to ground.
yet you've a drawing stating you're providing a ground via either direct wiring or via a hobbs switch. In that case as the ecu also provides a ground, neither of those relays should ever energise.
The only time the ecu output would ever be 12v, is when it is de-energised, ie pump off ( ie 12v is then applied to both sides of the relay coil so it will be off ). That's just because of how the internal circuits on ecu's work.
Same for the likes of injectors they trigger to ground to energise the injector, and apply 12v to turn it off again, with a key based 12v supply to the other side.
Not sure if it's just how you've drawn the diagram, or if that is actually how you've it configured ?
But to me, it is not correct and should not work correctly.
10-03-2015, 11:05 AM
#42
Restricted User
Thread Starter
The relay wiring seems odd.
Every car I've seen in the last 20-30 years, the ecu always drives the outputs, including that to energise the relay, to ground.
yet you've a drawing stating you're providing a ground via either direct wiring or via a hobbs switch. In that case as the ecu also provides a ground, neither of those relays should ever energise.
The only time the ecu output would ever be 12v, is when it is de-energised, ie pump off ( ie 12v is then applied to both sides of the relay coil so it will be off ). That's just because of how the internal circuits on ecu's work.
Same for the likes of injectors they trigger to ground to energise the injector, and apply 12v to turn it off again, with a key based 12v supply to the other side.
Not sure if it's just how you've drawn the diagram, or if that is actually how you've it configured ?
But to me, it is not correct and should not work correctly.
Every car I've seen in the last 20-30 years, the ecu always drives the outputs, including that to energise the relay, to ground.
yet you've a drawing stating you're providing a ground via either direct wiring or via a hobbs switch. In that case as the ecu also provides a ground, neither of those relays should ever energise.
The only time the ecu output would ever be 12v, is when it is de-energised, ie pump off ( ie 12v is then applied to both sides of the relay coil so it will be off ). That's just because of how the internal circuits on ecu's work.
Same for the likes of injectors they trigger to ground to energise the injector, and apply 12v to turn it off again, with a key based 12v supply to the other side.
Not sure if it's just how you've drawn the diagram, or if that is actually how you've it configured ?
But to me, it is not correct and should not work correctly.
10-03-2015, 11:25 AM
#43
9 Second Club
10-03-2015, 12:12 PM
#45
The relay wiring seems odd.
Every car I've seen in the last 20-30 years, the ecu always drives the outputs, including that to energise the relay, to ground.
yet you've a drawing stating you're providing a ground via either direct wiring or via a hobbs switch. In that case as the ecu also provides a ground, neither of those relays should ever energise.
The only time the ecu output would ever be 12v, is when it is de-energised, ie pump off ( ie 12v is then applied to both sides of the relay coil so it will be off ). That's just because of how the internal circuits on ecu's work.
Same for the likes of injectors they trigger to ground to energise the injector, and apply 12v to turn it off again, with a key based 12v supply to the other side.
Not sure if it's just how you've drawn the diagram, or if that is actually how you've it configured ?
But to me, it is not correct and should not work correctly.
Every car I've seen in the last 20-30 years, the ecu always drives the outputs, including that to energise the relay, to ground.
yet you've a drawing stating you're providing a ground via either direct wiring or via a hobbs switch. In that case as the ecu also provides a ground, neither of those relays should ever energise.
The only time the ecu output would ever be 12v, is when it is de-energised, ie pump off ( ie 12v is then applied to both sides of the relay coil so it will be off ). That's just because of how the internal circuits on ecu's work.
Same for the likes of injectors they trigger to ground to energise the injector, and apply 12v to turn it off again, with a key based 12v supply to the other side.
Not sure if it's just how you've drawn the diagram, or if that is actually how you've it configured ?
But to me, it is not correct and should not work correctly.
10-03-2015, 12:23 PM
#47
9 Second Club
If it does indeed fire out 12v to energise the relay, then the diagram is fine.
Although as others have suggested, I'll never figure out why people want the complication of switches and staging pumps.
Just run them both together. Simple and never gives problems.
10-03-2015, 12:30 PM
#48
Restricted User
Thread Starter
I might have to, if I can't get boost under control.
Tested the wastegate with an air compressor and regulator. It should start coming open at 11 PSI.
Just went for a test drive. Couple of mild pulls, nothing major. 2nd gear pull from a 50 roll. I hit 290 kPa, wideband went lean at 15:1. I'm pretty sure my knock sensors aren't working because they recorded 0 KR. It is 50 degrees out, coolant temps only run 160, and I'm spraying a 60/40 water/meth mix out of a large nozzle, but I doubt thats enough to keep this thing together if I can't figure out why it keeps overboosting. It builds boost too fast. Probably 100 kPa to 290 kPa in about .8 seconds.
Even the mild 200 kPa pulls that I'm tuned for, it sounds like it has lifter tick after every pull.
Tested the wastegate with an air compressor and regulator. It should start coming open at 11 PSI.
Just went for a test drive. Couple of mild pulls, nothing major. 2nd gear pull from a 50 roll. I hit 290 kPa, wideband went lean at 15:1. I'm pretty sure my knock sensors aren't working because they recorded 0 KR. It is 50 degrees out, coolant temps only run 160, and I'm spraying a 60/40 water/meth mix out of a large nozzle, but I doubt thats enough to keep this thing together if I can't figure out why it keeps overboosting. It builds boost too fast. Probably 100 kPa to 290 kPa in about .8 seconds.
Even the mild 200 kPa pulls that I'm tuned for, it sounds like it has lifter tick after every pull.
10-03-2015, 12:33 PM
#49
I know that, and as I said normally ecu's only ever output ground triggers. Not 12v.
If it does indeed fire out 12v to energise the relay, then the diagram is fine.
Although as others have suggested, I'll never figure out why people want the complication of switches and staging pumps.
Just run them both together. Simple and never gives problems.
If it does indeed fire out 12v to energise the relay, then the diagram is fine.
Although as others have suggested, I'll never figure out why people want the complication of switches and staging pumps.
Just run them both together. Simple and never gives problems.
Everything after that I've had them wired to work at the same time or just have a big enough pump that can do the job itself
10-03-2015, 12:34 PM
#51
I might have to, if I can't get boost under control.
Tested the wastegate with an air compressor and regulator. It should start coming open at 11 PSI.
Just went for a test drive. Couple of mild pulls, nothing major. 2nd gear pull from a 50 roll. I hit 290 kPa, wideband went lean at 15:1. I'm pretty sure my knock sensors aren't working because they recorded 0 KR. It is 50 degrees out, coolant temps only run 160, and I'm spraying a 60/40 water/meth mix out of a large nozzle, but I doubt thats enough to keep this thing together if I can't figure out why it keeps overboosting. It builds boost too fast. Probably 100 kPa to 290 kPa in about .8 seconds.
Even the mild 200 kPa pulls that I'm tuned for, it sounds like it has lifter tick after every pull.
Tested the wastegate with an air compressor and regulator. It should start coming open at 11 PSI.
Just went for a test drive. Couple of mild pulls, nothing major. 2nd gear pull from a 50 roll. I hit 290 kPa, wideband went lean at 15:1. I'm pretty sure my knock sensors aren't working because they recorded 0 KR. It is 50 degrees out, coolant temps only run 160, and I'm spraying a 60/40 water/meth mix out of a large nozzle, but I doubt thats enough to keep this thing together if I can't figure out why it keeps overboosting. It builds boost too fast. Probably 100 kPa to 290 kPa in about .8 seconds.
Even the mild 200 kPa pulls that I'm tuned for, it sounds like it has lifter tick after every pull.
10-03-2015, 01:05 PM
#52
Restricted User
Thread Starter
Wastegate is very uncomplicated. Single line straight from intake next to TB to the wastegate. Nothing inline or obstructing flow.
There is another line going from the top port on the intake to vacuum block. On that is the hobbs, boost gauge, MAP and blowoff valve. No complicated crosses or T fittings.
There is another line going from the top port on the intake to vacuum block. On that is the hobbs, boost gauge, MAP and blowoff valve. No complicated crosses or T fittings.
10-03-2015, 01:43 PM
#53
Restricted User
Thread Starter
I said screw it and wired the 2nd pump to run full time. I was worried about it running too rich at idle because of the twin 340s and the regulator only having -6 feed/return fittings. It seems to run fine even at idle.
Btw, I put a second spring in the wastegate to get it to control boost without a controller, not sure if i mentioned that before. The problem is that the 2nd spring has far more coils, so the valve only opens half an inch or so before the spring bottoms out. I figure with this, it would boost creep at the most, not shoot straight for 300 kPa when I hit the throttle.
Btw, I put a second spring in the wastegate to get it to control boost without a controller, not sure if i mentioned that before. The problem is that the 2nd spring has far more coils, so the valve only opens half an inch or so before the spring bottoms out. I figure with this, it would boost creep at the most, not shoot straight for 300 kPa when I hit the throttle.
Last edited by JoeNova; 10-03-2015 at 01:48 PM.
10-03-2015, 01:52 PM
#54
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If it's overboosting why are you putting more spring in it?
I would start off by putting the lightest spring you have in there to get a baseline. The boosting issue you're having sounds like a recipe for a blown motor, especially when your fueling is uncertain.
I would start off by putting the lightest spring you have in there to get a baseline. The boosting issue you're having sounds like a recipe for a blown motor, especially when your fueling is uncertain.
10-03-2015, 01:56 PM
#55
Restricted User
Thread Starter
From there I put on the boost controller. All of the way down, it would run 20 lbs, sometimes seem like it was going to keep climbing. Tested with an air compressor and regulator, and I couldn't get it to so much as crack open even with 30 PSI in it.
Tossed the boost controller in the trash, put in the 2nd weakest spring as well. Pulled the line off of the intake going to the wastegate, put 11 PSI of pressure in it and the wastegate started to crack open. A few more PSI and it was as open as it would go before the 2nd spring would bottom out.
Take it for a drive, and boost skyrockets to 27 lbs as soon as I put my foot into it. This was at like 5300 RPM, maybe 1 second into the pull.
Last edited by JoeNova; 10-03-2015 at 02:02 PM.
10-03-2015, 02:27 PM
#56
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What's your target boost level?
If you can run as low as 6 psi steady I doubt your WG is undersized.
I would try a spring that's closer to your target boost level and then go from there.
If you can run as low as 6 psi steady I doubt your WG is undersized.
I would try a spring that's closer to your target boost level and then go from there.
10-03-2015, 02:31 PM
#57
Wastegate is very uncomplicated. Single line straight from intake next to TB to the wastegate. Nothing inline or obstructing flow.
There is another line going from the top port on the intake to vacuum block. On that is the hobbs, boost gauge, MAP and blowoff valve. No complicated crosses or T fittings.
There is another line going from the top port on the intake to vacuum block. On that is the hobbs, boost gauge, MAP and blowoff valve. No complicated crosses or T fittings.
I said screw it and wired the 2nd pump to run full time. I was worried about it running too rich at idle because of the twin 340s and the regulator only having -6 feed/return fittings. It seems to run fine even at idle.
Btw, I put a second spring in the wastegate to get it to control boost without a controller, not sure if i mentioned that before. The problem is that the 2nd spring has far more coils, so the valve only opens half an inch or so before the spring bottoms out. I figure with this, it would boost creep at the most, not shoot straight for 300 kPa when I hit the throttle.
Btw, I put a second spring in the wastegate to get it to control boost without a controller, not sure if i mentioned that before. The problem is that the 2nd spring has far more coils, so the valve only opens half an inch or so before the spring bottoms out. I figure with this, it would boost creep at the most, not shoot straight for 300 kPa when I hit the throttle.
10-03-2015, 02:33 PM
#58
Restricted User
Thread Starter
44mm wastegate that is right before the turbo. It was controlling boost great down at 6 lbs.
But I couldn't get less than 20 lbs with the controller. Threw it in the trash, went back to the old line/setup but with 11 lbs of spring in it this time. 293 kPa on the MAP sensor.... I'm not sure what to do at this point.
But I couldn't get less than 20 lbs with the controller. Threw it in the trash, went back to the old line/setup but with 11 lbs of spring in it this time. 293 kPa on the MAP sensor.... I'm not sure what to do at this point.
10-03-2015, 02:35 PM
#59
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Thread Starter
So is the boost controller hooked up or not? Not sure if you are aware of this or not, but a boost controller is used to hold the wastegate closed beyond what the spring is. So if you have the boost controller off, you'd only be running the spring, but if you want more, you need either more spring or a boost controller of some sort.
10-03-2015, 02:36 PM
#60
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So is the boost controller hooked up or not? Not sure if you are aware of this or not, but a boost controller is used to hold the wastegate closed beyond what the spring is. So if you have the boost controller off, you'd only be running the spring, but if you want more, you need either more spring or a boost controller of some sort.
Also, if your WG has a diaphragm you aren't supposed to have it hooked up to the manifold. My JGS doesn't have one so I can get away with it but it's still recommended to hook up to the compressor housing.