Tell companies who make quality products and run pure methanol that...

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They are both doing different things.... Not that hard to understand

 

So if I’m relying on race gas to keep the motor out of detonation, Is that a band aid as well?

You’re all over the place in that last reply and it’s clear you have zero experience with a properly setup water/meth inj. system. So I’m not sure why you’re commenting? If setup by a moron any type of fuel delivery system will have reliability issues. If setup properly meth/water injection is no less reliable than any fuel system. In fact it is more reliable.


Few points.

1.) Not sure where your vast nitrous knowledge comes from, but an excessively lean nitrous setup can cause detonation easily as well.

2.) There are many benefits to meth/water injection besides its anti-detonation properties. It is far from a band aid and increases performance in other ways. If my meth kit shuts down completely for any reason I won’t lose the motor as a result. I’ve never lost a motor due to a meth inj. kit failure in the 10+ years I’ve been playing with it.

3.) A “stock fuel system” differs from an alky kit very little. It’s a pump, fuel metering device, and lines. Since the alky nozzle itself is mechanical, it’s more reliable than an fuel injector. Having 1 fuel injector per cylinder is MUCH less reliable than spraying meth pre TB to all the cyls. Tons more moving parts and much more likely to have a problem with 8 electronic injectors.

4.) If care is taken when you fill up the meth tank, proper filters are in place, and yearly maintenance is preformed the nozzles aren’t going clog… That simple.

5.) I’ve yet to have an injector fail 100% and I test mine often. My injectors will tend to slowly drop off flow wise as they get “gunked up”. This also won’t show up on your collective AFR gauge as it is cylinder specific.

6.) Many folks out there run multiple fuel pumps as well. If one dies you have no way of knowing. That is why it’s important to have a proper safety system setup to pull timing/spark/fuel as necessary.

7.) If you have an actual “fast” car the last thing you should be doing is staring at the gauges when driving. You implement the proper safety systems to handle the situation automatically and you data log the information to review afterward.

 

it just adds more points of failure when you are relying on a meth kit in your tune.
lots of people love their meth injection, i dont really like the drawbacks of it.

 

Your octane and detonation threshold doesn't change if you're only running race gas now does it? Does it change if you're running pump and meth and your meth stops working? Not that difficult to understand. And if you're pointing the finger at my limited meth/water injection understanding I'll throw that back at you with nitrous. You WILL NOT hurt a nitrous motor from running too lean. Go do some research on the topic from the top N2O guys. This isn't even a topic to debate so I'm not going to. You nitpick and take liberties with peoples posts to try and prove a point and its hilarious, nobody said STARE at the gauges as an example. You glace just like you would look at a tach or oil pressure, etc. And you seem to entirely miss the point that if a car is setup properly for pump gas and your pump dies you have no combustion, but if you setup your car for pump+meth and your meth dies, you have BOOOM. The end.

 

I've discussed this in depth with Ally Control, Snow, Devils Own, etc when I worked at Popular Hot Rodding.

I'm spraying 10% as much methanol ( if I was spraying pure) as I am gasoline. It doesn't take a genius to do the math to figure up how much of an octane boost I'm getting. Its not much.

If you want, I can give you a detailed thermodynamics lesson (i studied thermodynamics for years) on how water is far superior due to its specific heat capacity and latent heat of vaporization when it comes to actually cooling the temps in the chamber to below where the detonation threshold is. Not to mention it doesn't burn. As it's converting to steam, it pulls out a huge amount of heat, so before the gas is it ignited, temps in the chamber are much lower than where they should be, preventing detonation.

Methanol provides a few points of octane and a cooler burn. Waters benefits start to happen as soon as compression begins taking place.

 

You can't hurt a nitrous engine by going lean? That's hilarious!

 

I had a solenoid fail in the open postion and took out a motor, just saying.

 

Only if its overtimed

 

Not sure how your solenoid over times out engine, but it must be interesting.

 

Water does seem to have some bene's. All things being equal, will injecting water COST hp? Does timing have to be increased to get the bene's of water?

 

Water can cost HP if your ignition system isn't up to the task. Trading a little power for safety. With a strong ignition system, you won't be giving up much. I spray 30/70 or 50/50. I found a place that sells 50/50 for 2 dollars a gallon, so I made the switch.

 

I was thinking of running meth on my whippled ly6. Should I run water/ meth or straight meth? I talked to whipple and they said pre blower was fine, so what kit should I be looking at?

 

I run an Alky Control kit with 100% methanol.

 

The point you missed is the detonation threshold won’t change unless the meth fails. If the meth fails (which it shouldn’t since it’s a more reliable system than your fuel injection system) and the correct safety measures are in place, the engine will not be harmed. So does it make more sense economically to blow $16 a gallon on race fuel, or setup a properly working meth injection kit and cruise around on pump gas? Seems like a no brainer to me.

Throw what back at me? You’re ignorance? Nitrous releases additional oxygen as it burns which adds tons of heat in the CC, it’s no different than leaning out under boost. When’s the last time you had 8 injectors stop 100% all at once? Or a fuel pump completely shut off 100%? I’ve been racing a long time and never had a pump just stop during a pass. That scenario just isn’t common. It’s more likely that volume will drop “X” percent and not shut down completely. Could be from a slowly clogging filter, or 1 of the 8 injectors dropping flow. The point you can’t grasp is you’re more likely to have an issues with your standard fuel system than with a meth kit. There won’t be any “Booms” or “the ends” either way if you’re not a moron and setup the proper safety measures.

I didn’t pick apart anything. You are making blatantly moronic comments. Detonation happens faster than you can see on a gauge, by the time you saw indication of it, the damage has been done. You can’t casually watch the gauges and expect to save an engine. Telling people “if you're not watching your gauges when at WOT, thats your own fault if you blow something up “ is ridiculous. It clearly shows you’re lack of experience

 

Its right here where my curiosity peaks....

So, the question is, what is the balance between lost hp and an increase in safety?

In other words, do you give up say ~1% power for a ~100% wider tuning/safety margin? I think most people would gladly trade 1-5% power for a significant increase in safety. I just don't know how this could be measured.

 

I lost about 3mph with the “low output” square truck coils spraying roughly 17gph of 50/50. Turned the m/w off and picked up 3mph with no other changes made to tune. Odd thing was I didn’t feel any kind of misfire. I could easily hear/feel the ignition misfiring when spraying large volumes of water on my turbo Buick engines. The LS engine was just down on power with no other indication.

Installed a set of the “high output” D-585 coils with my m/w “on” and gained the 3mph back and more. Had to add fuel to keep AFR’s in check with the hotter coils. Plug heat markings clearly indicate cooler combustion with the m/w “on”. Which IMO is enough reason in itself to run it.

 

Good to know Adam. 3mph is actually a good bit of power to be down (and then regain). The "down" appears to be more of a coil issue rather than a water issue, but you can't deny the "gain" and cooler plug.

 

Can clearly see what water is doing in the chamber.

This is same hole same tune, just water on vs off. Performance~= on the box 100-150

 

I didn't miss any point, my last post states that detonation threshold doesn't change with race gas but does when your meth fails....since you obviously didn't comprehend my last post, no point in arguing any further. To each his own, you do it your way and I'll do it mine. I've built and tuned several boosted setups all on pump gas and never blown a single engine so I can't be doing too bad.