No intercooler w/pump fuel
If this were just a dyno contest to see who could make the most power per pound of boost the A2W would win hands down. Maybe the aux. injection offer’s some other benefits I’m not aware of in class racing. I’m far from an outlaw class racer and I’m sure there’s more to winning than just making the most power per pound of boost. I’m just throwing out theories made from what I’ve seen. Could be totally wrong on some points. Wouldn’t be the first time!
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2009
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From: THORNTON, PA (NEAR PHILLY)
I u/s that a cooler and denser charge that the a/a provides leads to more power, but I would question "how much"? Is there a notable difference in power from say 80* to 160* IAT's? If the difference is minimal (as in the margin of error on a dyno or track) I think I would consider leaving it off and letting the engine compartment run cooler and taking weight off the front end of the car.
I u/s that a cooler and denser charge that the a/a provides leads to more power, but I would question "how much"? Is there a notable difference in power from say 80* to 160* IAT's? If the difference is minimal (as in the margin of error on a dyno or track) I think I would consider leaving it off and letting the engine compartment run cooler and taking weight off the front end of the car.
If your right in your 70% efficiency island on the comp map 15lbs of boost will generate 250* outlet temps at 80* ambient. Your IAT's reported temps are questionable. According to the math your outlet temps should have been around 200* at 9.5lbs and 80* inlet temps. Or 190* at minimum assuming 75% efficiency. I don't think most single turbos are likely to be over 75%.
I’d guess that IAT sensor is not very accurate, somehow your turbo is over 75% efficient, or the math is wrong on this sites calculator. Which I doubt... I could have entered the information wrong which is always highly possible! Play around with it and see for yourself.
http://www.stealth316.com/2-turbotemp.htm
PLX devices has a decent fast acting IAT sensor thats semi cheap.
http://www.plxdevices.com/Air-Intake...7346002214.htm
Last edited by Forcefed86; Apr 29, 2016 at 12:25 PM.
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,621
Likes: 31
From: THORNTON, PA (NEAR PHILLY)
Yes, you would be giving up a considerable amount of power running no IC. Not to mention the detonation issues you’d run into with pump gas. 160* turbo outlet temps generally aren’t going to equate to much boost either. Going by the math you should be hitting 160* around 6lbs of boost at 80* ambient.
If your right in your 70% efficiency island on the comp map 15lbs of boost will generate 250* outlet temps at 80* ambient. Your IAT's reported temps are questionable. According to the math your outlet temps should have been around 200* at 9.5lbs and 80* inlet temps. Or 190* at minimum assuming 75% efficiency. I don't think most single turbos are likely to be over 75%.
I’d guess that IAT sensor is not very accurate, somehow your turbo is over 75% efficient, or the math is wrong on this sites calculator. Which I doubt... I could have entered the information wrong which is always highly possible! Play around with it and see for yourself.
http://www.stealth316.com/2-turbotemp.htm
PLX devices has a decent fast acting IAT sensor thats semi cheap.
http://www.plxdevices.com/Air-Intake...7346002214.htm
If your right in your 70% efficiency island on the comp map 15lbs of boost will generate 250* outlet temps at 80* ambient. Your IAT's reported temps are questionable. According to the math your outlet temps should have been around 200* at 9.5lbs and 80* inlet temps. Or 190* at minimum assuming 75% efficiency. I don't think most single turbos are likely to be over 75%.
I’d guess that IAT sensor is not very accurate, somehow your turbo is over 75% efficient, or the math is wrong on this sites calculator. Which I doubt... I could have entered the information wrong which is always highly possible! Play around with it and see for yourself.
http://www.stealth316.com/2-turbotemp.htm
PLX devices has a decent fast acting IAT sensor thats semi cheap.
http://www.plxdevices.com/Air-Intake...7346002214.htm
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,621
Likes: 31
From: THORNTON, PA (NEAR PHILLY)
We'll, put the i/c back it. I could swear the engine feels a little stronger driving around with it i on. Ambient temps were between 52 and 58*.
Here's what's interesting. W/o the i/c this morning and ambient temp at 52*, a 7 sec pull in high gear netted a 23* rise in temps to a final 126*. This was at apprx 11.5psi.
Now, with the ambient temp at 58* and the i/c back on, a 7 sec pull again netted a -7* change (final temp reading was about 76*) from the starting temp.
With the i/c, the temp always drop for a good bit and then slowly creeps up where w/o the i/c temps just rise right from the start. Something else I found interesting is that the resting IAT's are apprx 10* cooler with the i/c on....????? This is despite the fact that the turbo is picking up air in the same place (right behind a headlight in the engine bay).
Now what has me sorta angry is that I documented a loss of >2.5 psi with the i/c on. Didn't think it was that much but it was hard to drive and look at the boost gauge. The >2.5psi loss is from datalog info....dammit. Now, is it possible that I'm not considering something...like perhaps the boost controller settings or something? I left everything alone to get a good a comparison as I could. Wonder if just having a boost reference line from the turbo to the gates would of been better for comparing notes.
In the past my car wouldn't pick-up much at all after ~12 psi. Wonder if I found the culprit????
Here's what's interesting. W/o the i/c this morning and ambient temp at 52*, a 7 sec pull in high gear netted a 23* rise in temps to a final 126*. This was at apprx 11.5psi.
Now, with the ambient temp at 58* and the i/c back on, a 7 sec pull again netted a -7* change (final temp reading was about 76*) from the starting temp.
With the i/c, the temp always drop for a good bit and then slowly creeps up where w/o the i/c temps just rise right from the start. Something else I found interesting is that the resting IAT's are apprx 10* cooler with the i/c on....????? This is despite the fact that the turbo is picking up air in the same place (right behind a headlight in the engine bay).
Now what has me sorta angry is that I documented a loss of >2.5 psi with the i/c on. Didn't think it was that much but it was hard to drive and look at the boost gauge. The >2.5psi loss is from datalog info....dammit. Now, is it possible that I'm not considering something...like perhaps the boost controller settings or something? I left everything alone to get a good a comparison as I could. Wonder if just having a boost reference line from the turbo to the gates would of been better for comparing notes.
In the past my car wouldn't pick-up much at all after ~12 psi. Wonder if I found the culprit????
1-2psi is pretty common, even with a good core. Everything sounds pretty normal to me considering you have a crappo china/Ebay IC. Save up for a garrett core thats the same size and the difference will be night/day. Even swapping out for a treadstone made a big difference on my setup.
Last edited by Forcefed86; Apr 30, 2016 at 08:23 PM.
Maybe frontal area plays a part in the Race aspect as well.
And besides cooling the combustion chamber that water is raising the compression also..... Maybe they can add more and more ( with benefits) until it puts out the flame.
And besides cooling the combustion chamber that water is raising the compression also..... Maybe they can add more and more ( with benefits) until it puts out the flame.
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,621
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From: THORNTON, PA (NEAR PHILLY)
1-2psi is pretty common, even with a good core. Everything sounds pretty normal to me considering you have a crappo china/Ebay IC. Save up for a garrett core thats the same size and the difference will be night/day. Even swapping out for a treadstone made a big difference on my setup.
I'm also going to try and get creative in terms of ducting etc to try and channel air towards the radiator. A thicker core will only make the car run hotter unfortunately.
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Verdad Gallardo The turbos not exactly working itself to death having to pump a few extra PSI at those levels. Once you push the limits of what the turbo is capable of, then a better IC will take you quite a bit farther. You aren't losing much if the turbo can easily keep up with the pressure drop is my point I guess.
I ran that same china IC up to 23lbs or so on my 5.3 with teh small S475. Barely picked up from 23-26 psi. I'm sure if I had the treadstone IC I have now, It would have continued to pick up past 23lbs.
What fan are you using? Shroud? I can't say enough about a properly shrouded taurus fan and what they are capable of. I have a 14x14 radiator core with a huge 4" thick IC blocking it 100%. I've never had an over heating issue.
I ran that same china IC up to 23lbs or so on my 5.3 with teh small S475. Barely picked up from 23-26 psi. I'm sure if I had the treadstone IC I have now, It would have continued to pick up past 23lbs.
What fan are you using? Shroud? I can't say enough about a properly shrouded taurus fan and what they are capable of. I have a 14x14 radiator core with a huge 4" thick IC blocking it 100%. I've never had an over heating issue.
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2009
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From: THORNTON, PA (NEAR PHILLY)
The turbos not exactly working itself to death having to pump a few extra PSI at those levels. Once you push the limits of what the turbo is capable of, then a better IC will take you quite a bit farther. You aren't losing much if the turbo can easily keep up with the pressure drop is my point I guess.
I ran that same china IC up to 23lbs or so on my 5.3 with teh small S475. Barely picked up from 23-26 psi. I'm sure if I had the treadstone IC I have now, It would have continued to pick up past 23lbs.
What fan are you using? Shroud? I can't say enough about a properly shrouded taurus fan and what they are capable of. I have a 14x14 radiator core with a huge 4" thick IC blocking it 100%. I've never had an over heating issue.
I ran that same china IC up to 23lbs or so on my 5.3 with teh small S475. Barely picked up from 23-26 psi. I'm sure if I had the treadstone IC I have now, It would have continued to pick up past 23lbs.
What fan are you using? Shroud? I can't say enough about a properly shrouded taurus fan and what they are capable of. I have a 14x14 radiator core with a huge 4" thick IC blocking it 100%. I've never had an over heating issue.
I use a monster the fan as a crutch for poor airflow. Works great, I need mine on at all times, even on the highway. On high the Taurus fan probably flows 3x the air the OEM mustang fan flows. 90% of the time it's all that's needed.
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Joined: Apr 2013
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From: eastern nc
my 2cents on iat and detonation i think i.a.t plays more of a factor with making power level and engine running cooler than detonation .i am thinking (BASED OFF MY SET UP AND ME PLAYING WITH TUNE) .Compression ratio and cam spec affect detonation more than anything. my engine 9.0 to 1 .w 228/232 -114 lobe separation .with a very different valve timing compared to most turbo set ups.i run 93 pump 16deg of timing 15lbs of boost no knock dectected has mine more sensitive than others i dont start pulling timing til 140 deg .It was set not to pull til 160 but i scared and back it down to 140 .made 727 rwhp and 698 ft pds of torque .afr stays between 10.9-11.3 .. i have 50/50 meth but never used it hardly . not trying to argue with any one just based what i seen ,and by the way still running ngk 4177.which people told me wouldnt work with 15lbs of boost
I just glanced through this thread a little curious as to what you guys had to say. I think there is a critical fact that is not being considered or compared properly........and that is a drag car vs. a street car.
My opinion, if you have a drag only car, an a2a intercooler is probably the least efficient way to cool charge temps. We are talking about a situation where the motor is under full boost/power/whatever for only seconds at a time. By the time you got up to speed enough to get a workable amount of air flow over the cooler......the run is pretty much over.
Now if we are talking a street car..........that's a totally different story.
I would think you could split this thread into two separate threads in order to talk about the best way to cool the charge temp.
....or am I out in left field here?
My opinion, if you have a drag only car, an a2a intercooler is probably the least efficient way to cool charge temps. We are talking about a situation where the motor is under full boost/power/whatever for only seconds at a time. By the time you got up to speed enough to get a workable amount of air flow over the cooler......the run is pretty much over.
Now if we are talking a street car..........that's a totally different story.
I would think you could split this thread into two separate threads in order to talk about the best way to cool the charge temp.
....or am I out in left field here?
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,621
Likes: 31
From: THORNTON, PA (NEAR PHILLY)
I just glanced through this thread a little curious as to what you guys had to say. I think there is a critical fact that is not being considered or compared properly........and that is a drag car vs. a street car.
My opinion, if you have a drag only car, an a2a intercooler is probably the least efficient way to cool charge temps. We are talking about a situation where the motor is under full boost/power/whatever for only seconds at a time. By the time you got up to speed enough to get a workable amount of air flow over the cooler......the run is pretty much over.
Now if we are talking a street car..........that's a totally different story.
I would think you could split this thread into two separate threads in order to talk about the best way to cool the charge temp.
....or am I out in left field here?
My opinion, if you have a drag only car, an a2a intercooler is probably the least efficient way to cool charge temps. We are talking about a situation where the motor is under full boost/power/whatever for only seconds at a time. By the time you got up to speed enough to get a workable amount of air flow over the cooler......the run is pretty much over.
Now if we are talking a street car..........that's a totally different story.
I would think you could split this thread into two separate threads in order to talk about the best way to cool the charge temp.
....or am I out in left field here?
Although, for the short-burst type driving that I mostly engage in, an a2w i/c is starting to look interesting as I could just turn it on/off as needed and let the radiator get a full-shot of incoming air vs being blocked.